Trump and Gallagher

[sactowndog]

Curious the opinions of the veterans on this board regarding Trumps actions and the Sec of the Navy’s dismissal and statement. 

[Nevada Convert]

1 hour ago, sactowndog said:

Curious the opinions of the veterans on this board regarding Trumps actions and the Sec of the Navy’s dismissal and statement. 

It’ll be exactly the same as non-vets. Most everyone sees things down party lines. 

[renoskier]

8 hours ago, Nevada Convert said:

It’ll be exactly the same as non-vets. Most everyone sees things down party lines. 

Is this true @Uncle Juan

[renoskier]

8 hours ago, Nevada Convert said:

It’ll be exactly the same as non-vets. Most everyone sees things down party lines. 

I think you're wrong here. I believe most vets, regardless of party affiliation, will have a problem with the way President Trump handled this situation.

[rudolro]

Gallagher was tried by his peers. That's the ultimate jury and he was convicted.  No President should involve themselves is these matters, especially someone like Trump who has no sense of honor and is a coward.

[sean327]

2 hours ago, renoskier said:

Is this true @Uncle Juan

It's not true. The President used undue command influence in the SEAL case. The Navy found there was sufficient evidence to proceed with a Court Martial during the Article 32 hearing, and he was convicted by a jury. The President should've let this play out, but his dumbass uninformed ego wouldn't let him. I have no issue with the firing of SECNAV. He circumvented the chain of command and played both sides.

[Naggsty Butler]

A large portion of Trump's base has a raging hard-on for anything military related, and worships anyone considered "elite", such as SEALs, Delta Force, Rangers, etc. They will be quick to defend soldiers accused of human rights violations, saything things like " I detest the idea that we send our soldiers to fight and kill the most dangerous and deadly people on the planet and then second guess how they do it," or "Please go become a Navy seal and fight these terrorists. Show us how you can do it better before you call these guys criminals," or "Thats just how some of our military cope with the ugliness and nature of warfare. The PC culture, news media, and rules of engagement the military adopted under Obama's regime has hamstrung our military. Equating the US military with Isis and what they have done is disgusting," or "We do not need to follow all these UN rules during war. That is exactly what makes us lose wars and why Vietnam was lost. That is why the British lost the war and America was formed because we did not follow the rules of engagement. I am with Trump!" 

These people have also created an image in their heads that Trump ("I did this for the war-fighters.") understands the military better than his commanders, and is more patriotic than anyone else, saying things like "Thank you President Trump for standing up for the men and women in the trenches, on the hill, dodging bullets, jumping out of helicopters under fire not sitting behind desks shuffling papers and playing video games," and "Than God that we finally have a Comander in Chief who is actually willing to lead and make decisions!" and "Thank you, President Trump, for protecting our military personel against the unfair attacks from rabid pacifists and those with no idea what it is like in a war zone!" Ironically, these same people fail to remember or outright ignore the fact that Trump himself has no idea what it is like in a war zone due to getting a medical waiver for bone spurs so he could avoid being sent to Vietnam.

These are the same people who, when news of a unarmed black man being shot by a police officer comes out and don't bother to gather all the facts, say things like "He shouldn't have resisted," or "he must have been doing something wrong, or the officer wouldn't have needed to shoot him." The police and the military are infallible in their eyes, and anyone who questions the motives or actions of someone in those groups they immediately dismiss the charges as "PC," "Liberal," or "Unpatriotic."

Trump pardoned Gallagher and the other soldiers to please this part of his base. It cements this image of a Commander in Chief who has the backs of the troops and protects them from the ignorant brass and bureaucrats. If our soldiers happen to be a little bloodthirsty well that is just part of the job.

When I was in officer training for the Air Force, we learned all about My Lai and Lt. Calley.  The military does not want its soldiers becoming bloodthirsty monsters.  The moment we allow ourselves to do that we lose our moral authority. If you don't see the problem with killing unarmed non-combatants then I suggest you read about My Lai, the Bataan Death March, as well as read Ordinary Men.  We have a moral obligation to be better, to be above these kinds of actions, and Trump is not making America great by pardoning people convicted of war crimes.  

[bsu_alum9]

Not a veteran, but damn...

Quote

Criminal allegations

Charge sheet^[9]

UCMJ Article	Charge/Specification
Article 80	Attempted Murder
Article 118	Premeditated Murder
Article 128	Aggravated Assault with a Dangerous Weapon x2 on non-combatants
Article 134	Firearm, discharging-willfully, under such circumstances as to endanger human life at non-combatants
Article 134	Obstructing Justice (three counts)
Article 134	Wrongfully pose for an unofficial picture with a human casualty
Article 134	Wrongfully complete reenlistment ceremony next to a human casualty
Article 134	Wrongfully Operate a drone over a human casualty
Article 112a	Wrongful Use of a Controlled Substance – Tramadol Hydrochloride
Article 112a	Unlawful Possession of a Controlled Substance – Sustanon-250

Chief Gallagher was accused of multiple offenses during his final deployment to Iraq and during the Battle for Mosul. The most prominent accusation and the best-attested to was the murder of a prisoner of war, a war crime.^[6] A captured young fighter of the Islamic State (also known as ISIL, ISIS, and Daesh) was being treated by a medic. According to two SEAL witnesses, Gallagher said over the radio "he's mine" and walked up to the medic and prisoner, and without saying a word killed the prisoner by stabbing him repeatedly with his hunting knife. Gallagher and his commanding officer, Lieutenant Jake Portier, then posed for photographs of them standing over the body with some other nearby SEALs. Gallagher then text messaged a fellow SEAL a picture of the dead captive with the explanation "Good story behind this, got him with my hunting knife.”^[6]

Another accusation was that Gallagher's sniper work during his 2017 deployment became indiscriminate, reckless, and bloodthirsty. He allegedly fired his rifle far more frequently than other snipers;^[2] according to testimony, the other snipers in the platoon did not consider him a good sniper, and he took "random shots" into buildings.^[1] Other snipers said they witnessed Gallagher taking at least two militarily pointless shots, shooting and killing an unarmed old man in a white robe as well as a young girl walking with other girls. Gallagher allegedly boasted about the large number of people he had killed, claiming he averaged three kills a day over 80 days, including four women.^[1] Gallagher also was reportedly known for indiscriminately spraying neighborhoods with rockets and machine gun fire with no known enemy force in the region.^[6]

A charge of obstruction of justice was brought against Gallagher for alleged witness intimidation. According to the claim, Gallagher allegedly threatened to kill fellow SEALs if they reported his actions.^[2] The Navy cited his text messages as attempting to undermine the investigation, with messages sent to "pass the word on those traitors", meaning cooperating witnesses, and to get them blacklisted within the special warfare community.^[6][1] This resulted in him being confined in the brig for a time with heavy restrictions on his ability to communicate, although this confinement was later lessened.^[2]

Gallagher was also charged with "nearly a dozen" lesser offenses.^[2]

According to the original Navy prosecutor Chris Czaplak, "Chief Gallagher decided to act like the monster the terrorists accuse us of being. He handed ISIS propaganda manna from heaven. His actions are everything ISIS says we are."^[3][2]

Trump calls him "full definition of a war fighter" and wants him absolved from all of this. And the Daily Beast is reporting that Trump wants Gallagher at his campaign rallies.  

[retrofade]

18 minutes ago, bsu_alum9 said:

Not a veteran, but damn...

Trump calls him "full definition of a war fighter" and wants him absolved from all of this. And the Daily Beast is reporting that Trump wants Gallagher at his campaign rallies.  

That's not surprising in the least bit to me. He loves his military props, and if he can compare Gallagher to himself on the campaign trail, painting them both as victims of "witch hunts" and being treated "unfairly" then it helps to solidify the portion of his base that care about such things.

[renoskier]

9 minutes ago, retrofade said:

That's not surprising in the least bit to me. He loves his military props, and if he can compare Gallagher to himself on the campaign trail, painting them both as victims of "witch hunts" and being treated "unfairly" then it helps to solidify the portion of his base that care about such things.

[SleepingGiantFan]

I thought you were comparing Trump and Gallagher the comedian and I was going to say both are total bores.

[retrofade]

[crixus]

Speaking of Gallagher...

[sactowndog]

13 hours ago, Uncle Juan said:

It's not true. The President used undue command influence in the SEAL case. The Navy found there was sufficient evidence to proceed with a Court Martial during the Article 32 hearing, and he was convicted by a jury. The President should've let this play out, but his dumbass uninformed ego wouldn't let him. I have no issue with the firing of SECNAV. He circumvented the chain of command and played both sides.

I was curious if this tends to be a uniform opinion among armed services officers or it was a partisan issue like Convert claimed.  Thanks for chiming in.

[rudolro]

I just saw a clip of Trump at his rally in FLA.  He called our military"Deep State" +++++ him. 

[sean327]

18 hours ago, bsu_alum9 said:

Not a veteran, but damn...

Trump calls him "full definition of a war fighter" and wants him absolved from all of this. And the Daily Beast is reporting that Trump wants Gallagher at his campaign rallies.  

Gallagher is a piece of shit. Members of his own team testified against him, yet the President wants everyone to believe that Gallagher is squeaky clean. Unfortunately all the adults in this administration couldn't stomach the bullshit any longer and left. Now the President is surrounded by nothing but yes men. The new SEAL leadership is trying to clean up the anything goes culture that's been allowed to persist for years, only to get hamstrung by an idiot CIC who thinks he knows more than his Generals and Admirals. And people wonder why Mattis took his ball and went home.

[easybronc]

Most veterans support Trump and will be glad that he got involved to give leniency to a SEAL convicted of posing for a pic with a dead terrorist. 

You guys are mistaken.

[East Coast Aztec]

59 minutes ago, easybronc said:

Most veterans support Trump and will be glad that he got involved to give leniency to a SEAL convicted of posing for a pic with a dead terrorist. 

You guys are mistaken.

Well, it is a mutual jerk session, so I can see how some choose to gloss over what appears to be a pretty clear need for a trial.

If he pardoned the Marines that pissed on the dead enemy, that is one thing.  It is my opinion that this is merely a backlash of cases like the above, and the fact the wars had stringent ROE's that created a stressful situation, that consequently removes accountability as a reasonable expectation for a case like this for nothing more than backlash.  Not many Veterans I converse with believe Gallaghers cumulative actions is a standard of war that is justifiable to not go through the UCMJ. 

It is a Veterans OJ trial.  Pure emotion.

[soupslam1]

I met some bat shit psychotic people while I was in the military who never should be allowed to tote a weapon. However, I will also say war changes some people who see their buddies get killed and lose any moral perspective.

Having said that I always felt the UCMJ was fairly enforced and I think military courts get it right more often than civilian courts. I know nothing about this guy Gallagher and his situation, but if convicted by a military court I think Trump erred in overturning their decision. 

[East Coast Aztec]

3 minutes ago, soupslam1 said:

I met some bat shit psychotic people while I was in the military who never should be allowed to tote a weapon. However, I will also say war changes some people who see their buddies get killed and lose any moral perspective.

 

While I agree, it still would go through UCMJ, and for good reason.  What typically happens is that it is factored if a conviction, see Haditha.