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Akkula

Why Warren and Sanders are Strongest Against Trump

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4 hours ago, mugtang said:

I’m against a government that is $21 trillion in debt taking on any new spending programs until we get our fiscal house in order.  But I think there are other things we can do to drive down the costs like eliminating a lot of the red tape, tackling drug costs, etc. 

There’s a book about the approach you’re describing called “The Price We Pay” by Marty Makary. I’m about half way through it, but essentially his argument seems to be that there are things we could pass much more easily then M4A that would significantly cut down the costs of our healthcare system. Pricing transparency for doctors and hospitals, for example, is one of the things he is advocating for. Good book so far.

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On 11/12/2019 at 12:48 PM, toonkee said:

Probably so. I wonder if Mitch basically told he'll never bring anything to the floor anyway and just let the Dems go hang themselves on m4all.

I don’t think what Cocaine Mitch says has much sway over Trump, if any at all. They seem to coexist alongside each other, but they don’t cooperate and that seems to suit both just fine. Trump, for whatever the enormous amount of things he’s ignorant about, is not politically stupid. He knows well enough how booting a small percentage of the population off their healthcare plays, it wrecked him for months. He’s savvy enough in the PR business to let m4all argue against itself, he doesn’t need a McConnell to tell him that.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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On 11/12/2019 at 4:13 PM, SalinasSpartan said:

Well if we are going to be honest in this thought exercise, if M4A is passed in the near future it likely means a Bernie Sanders presidency. That means students would be graduating from med school at public universities would have far less debt, maybe none.  

It means that the country has so much debt we go into civil war before the end of Sanders first term.

Every rationed care system in the world has trouble attracting doctors the same would be true with M4A.

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4 hours ago, bluerules009 said:

It means that the country has so much debt we go into civil war before the end of Sanders first term.

Every rationed care system in the world has trouble attracting doctors the same would be true with M4A.

Aren’t those “look what happens in other countries with socialized medicine” arguments dismissed by people against M4A because “well that wouldn’t happen in the U.S. because of reasons! And stuff!”? Or is this kind of argument acceptable only when arguing against single payer? 

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3 hours ago, SalinasSpartan said:

Aren’t those “look what happens in other countries with socialized medicine” arguments dismissed by people against M4A because “well that wouldn’t happen in the U.S. because of reasons! And stuff!”? Or is this kind of argument acceptable only when arguing against single payer? 

I think examples mean something and everything that happens in other socialized medicine systems would happen.  People would die because of rationing.  That is just a fact of all these systems.

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40 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

I think examples mean something and everything that happens in other socialized medicine systems would happen.  People would die because of rationing.  That is just a fact of all these systems.

People die from lack of health insurance.

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On 11/14/2019 at 12:21 AM, thelawlorfaithful said:

I don’t think what Cocaine Mitch says has much sway over Trump, if any at all. They seem to coexist alongside each other, but they don’t cooperate and that seems to suit both just fine. Trump, for whatever the enormous amount of things he’s ignorant about, is not politically stupid. He knows well enough how booting a small percentage of the population off their healthcare plays, it wrecked him for months. He’s savvy enough in the PR business to let m4all argue against itself, he doesn’t need a McConnell to tell him that.

But he’s spoken about banning vaping. That can’t be worthwhile politically in any way for him.

I think I know what your problem is. You’re too doggone smart and you lack the empathy to understand just how thoughtless and near sighted a person can really be. My dad is like this. He cannot understand how someone would act against their own interests because he’s very shrewd and economical with his actions.  Like all of us, he has a bias to think that his kind of thinking is normal and that’s just what people do. But, me, I’m dumber and I have the experience and empathy to comprehend how dumber people think.

 

 

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5 hours ago, toonkee said:

But he’s spoken about banning vaping. That can’t be worthwhile politically in any way for him.

I think I know what your problem is. You’re too doggone smart and you lack the empathy to understand just how thoughtless and near sighted a person can really be. My dad is like this. He cannot understand how someone would act against their own interests because he’s very shrewd and economical with his actions.  Like all of us, he has a bias to think that his kind of thinking is normal and that’s just what people do. But, me, I’m dumber and I have the experience and empathy to comprehend how dumber people think.

 

 

People never act against their interests, your dad is right.   You may be confused as to what their interests are and not understand their motivation.  Which is the problem with empathy, and causes emotionally crippled thinkers like you to make bad decisions over and over.

 

For instance democrats think Trump became president for money and that his actions are motivated by money.  They don't realize that almost all politicians are narcissists.  He just wants attention and it is costing him money to be president.

 

People that are fireman, police military etc do those things for money mostly or the challenge and fun of it.  It isn't "service, motivated.  That is just a bonus that they can act like they are somehow selfless and get looked up to.

 

Empathy is the enemy of logic and progress.

 

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1 hour ago, bluerules009 said:

People never act against their interests, your dad is right.   You may be confused as to what their interest are and not understand their motivation.  Which is the problem with empathy, and causes emotionally crippled thinkers like you to make bad decisions over and over.

 

For instance democrats think Trump became president for money and that his actions are motivated by money.  They don't realize that almost all politicians are narcissists.  

 

People that are fireman, police military etc do those things for money mostly or the challenge and fun of it.  It isn't "service?, motivated.

 

Empathy is the enemy of logic and progress.

 

As the saying goes “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”. 

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7 hours ago, toonkee said:

But he’s spoken about banning vaping. That can’t be worthwhile politically in any way for him.

I think I know what your problem is. You’re too doggone smart and you lack the empathy to understand just how thoughtless and near sighted a person can really be. My dad is like this. He cannot understand how someone would act against their own interests because he’s very shrewd and economical with his actions.  Like all of us, he has a bias to think that his kind of thinking is normal and that’s just what people do. But, me, I’m dumber and I have the experience and empathy to comprehend how dumber people think.

Some would question my fitness on either count of empathy or wit, but I assure you I’m not too doggone smart for anything. I do have strong opinions on some things, and I voice them in the best way I can. And when presented with a compelling argument against it, I do my best to consider it  and adjust my thinking likewise. 

Regarding Trump’s posture on flavored vaping, he’s an idiot. He’s also a teetotaler, and this virtue combines with a personality defect of his that he looks down on anyone that would stupidly inhale things in their lungs.  Besides, the voting block of suburban Z-Millennials most affected by the stance against vaping wasn’t likely to vote for him anyway.

Now if your calling into my question my empathy is because I have policy disagreements about Medicare for all, I don’t have a defense. Think what you want about me. I do have strong feelings about the issue and I don’t like when lies are spread in its defense.

Pros: It will make healthcare expenditures for the nation cheaper. Price controls do that.

Cons: Healthcare will get worse and get rationed. That’s what happens when the payer assigns the payee the price.

Innovation wIll remarkably slow down. Grandchildren in 50 years would be much more screwed than otherwise because the dictated prices and high bars for regulation would deny them as yet undreamed of innovations that we’ve couldn’t previously imagined with our current system had we not actually experienced it.

The flight of doctors (Doctors!) from the field is not seriously taken into account within any of these proposals. Warren actually blows unicorn fart dust in her proposal saying Doctors would have to accept more volume for less. I mean, at least that’s somewhat honest, credit her for that.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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11 hours ago, toonkee said:

But he’s spoken about banning vaping. That can’t be worthwhile politically in any way for him.

 

 

He was apparently doing that because Melania and Ivanka pushed him to do it and he has since retreated.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/17/health/trump-vaping-ban.html

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On 11/12/2019 at 10:03 AM, Akkula said:

Well I agree to an extent but I also think a lot of the overutilization is caused by the doctors and the medical profession.  If you go to the doctor for a headache in the USA you will probably be treated with $20k worth of unnecessary diagnostic tests just to "rule out" some exotic disease that you almost certainly don't have.  Have you ever tried to ask a doctor how much his proposed treatment may cost?  They look at you like you are an alien or something.  Every few blocks in the USA there are these advanced medical centers with all these fancy machines that need to be paid for by utilization.  The process of never ending referrals and precautionary steps is quite incestuous and lucrative for the medical community.  Why rule things out with a simple and inexpensive treatment?  You say "IT IS THE LAWYERS" but I am sure a lot of doctors aren't turning down referrals when that new MRI machine needs to be paid for.  Lawyers are certainly also loving this system too!  There is lots of money slushing around in healthcare in the USA just waiting to be sucked up by someone all while the end customer is left in bankrupcy.  I kinda think it is funny sometimes that the insurance companies get blamed for high health costs when they are really just the unnecessary middle men.  The secret that most other countries know is that 99% of ailments are easily treatable with drugs that were invented generations ago.  The USA just figures out how to charge 100x more for those drugs and treatments and where is that money going?

There is a boat load of money in the USA healthcare system and until we stop having sacred cows and talk about where that money is really going and have them justify it...we won't be able to afford private, socialized or any other type of healthcare any longer.  The blank check is about to bounce.

Mister no strategy who can't plan past his next tweetstorm isn't going to save us...but neither is "let's just continue to kick the can down the road" guy....

There’s a big flaw in your thinking. The vast majority of ancillary services are not owned by physicians. So there is no financial incentive for me to order MRIs, CTs, labs etc..I do have and ultrasonographer to do on site ultrasounds but after payments, insurance at Medicaid rates, I clear about $20 dollars. My sonographer can only do about 10 a day between 4 doctors. So yea, $50 dollars a day is enough incentive to risk potential multi million dollar missed diagnosis. 9 of the top 10 rated hospitals by CMS were physician owned and rated for quality, patient satisfaction and cost effectiveness. And that is considering there are roughly 230 physician owned facilities out of over 6000 hospitals. And took Medicaid and Medicare before you try to accuse them of cherry picking insurance patients. Of course the ACA banned new physician owned hospitals. There is a lot of wasted dollars in our health care system but you historically point the finger at doctors without understanding anything about our health care system which makes solving the issues more difficult. Just imagine that this, the cost of regulatory compliance in a hospital is estimated to be $1200 per patient for a hospital.

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5 hours ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

Some would question my fitness on either count of empathy or wit, but I assure you I’m not too doggone smart for anything. I do have strong opinions on some things, and I voice them in the best way I can. And when presented with a compelling argument against it, I do my best to consider it  and adjust my thinking likewise. 

Regarding Trump’s posture on flavored vaping, he’s an idiot. He’s also a teetotaler, and this virtue combines with a personality defect of his that he looks down on anyone that would stupidly inhale things in their lungs.  Besides, the voting block of suburban Z-Millennials most affected by the stance against vaping wasn’t likely to vote for him anyway.

Now if your calling into my question my empathy is because I have policy disagreements about Medicare for all, I don’t have a defense. Think what you want about me. I do have strong feelings about the issue and I don’t like when lies are spread in its defense.

Pros: It will make healthcare expenditures for the nation cheaper. Price controls do that.

Cons: Healthcare will get worse and get rationed. That’s what happens when the payer assigns the payee the price.

Innovation wIll remarkably slow down. Grandchildren in 50 years would be much more screwed than otherwise because the dictated prices and high bars for regulation would deny them as yet undreamed of innovations that we’ve couldn’t previously imagined with our current system had we not actually experienced it.

The flight of doctors (Doctors!) from the field is not seriously taken into account within any of these proposals. Warren actually blows unicorn fart dust in her proposal saying Doctors would have to accept more volume for less. I mean, at least that’s somewhat honest, credit her for that.

For the record I was not talking about any lack of emotional empathy for people's health, etc., but an intellectual one where it's hard for you to understand why people would do things that were not well thought out. No offense intended in any way regarding your humanity. No offense intended in any way at all. Actually, my intent was to be complimentary. I also did not bring up m4all so not sure why you thought I was criticising you there.

Joe posted an article saying Trump wanted the vaping ban because Ivana and Melania. See, that's just dumb. There's no politics. You yourself said it's because he's a teetotaler, etc. No politics, no thinking about consequences, just dumb. In conclusion, he's just a dumb narcissist. 

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On 11/12/2019 at 12:43 PM, bluerules009 said:

Many doctors already have including me.

These government systems in every country have a shortage of doctors.   Way easier to make more money doing other things now, with medicare being your only source being a doctor will pay less than being a welder.

Am I naive for thinking that almost everything a doctor does could be replaced by automation?

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15 minutes ago, bsu_alum9 said:

Am I naive for thinking that almost everything a doctor does could be replaced by automation?

I doubt we’re replacing doctors with automation before we’ve replaced fry cooks.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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10 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

I doubt we’re replacing doctors with automation before we’ve replaced fry cooks.

It's already coming.  And many surgeries (Lasik or even internal stuff) is fully or predominately performed by robots.

This was almost a decade ago:

 

But most healthcare isn't surgeries.  I think there is a huge cost savings if the everyday doctor could be replaced with something like the McDonalds kiosk's that are popping up everywhere.

  

 

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2 minutes ago, bsu_alum9 said:

It's already coming.  And many surgeries (Lasik or even internal stuff) is fully or predominately performed by robots.

This was almost a decade ago:

 

But most healthcare isn't surgeries.  I think there is a huge cost savings if the everyday doctor could be replaced with something like the McDonalds kiosk's that are popping up everywhere.

  

 

Well that burger flipping robot sure has been cost effective when scaled. I know I’ve seen them these past 5 years...nowhere but YouTube. 4 years of a bachelors of science plus 3 years of medical school plus 2 years of residency should be easy enough to replicate with a web MD kiosk so long as an IT guy makes the interface intuitive enough.

tenor.gif

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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1 hour ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

Well that burger flipping robot sure has been cost effective when scaled. I know I’ve seen them these past 5 years...nowhere but YouTube. 4 years of a bachelors of science plus 3 years of medical school plus 2 years of residency should be easy enough to replicate with a web MD kiosk so long as an IT guy makes the interface intuitive enough.

https://futurism.com/neoscope/ai-diagnose-heart-disease-lung-cancer-more-accurately-doctors

AI is already better at diagnosing two of the biggest causers of death in America. 

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2 hours ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

I doubt we’re replacing doctors with automation before we’ve replaced fry cooks.

Should @Orange be worried about his job?

bsu_retro_bsu_logo_helmet.b_1.jpg

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