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TheSanDiegan

Mass Stabbing on the Tallahassee Trail

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9 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Hey I am just trying to come up with solutions.  It is important we do not make perfect the enemy of good.

One of the very worst uses of time is to do something very well that doesn't need to be done at all.

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2 hours ago, JADogs05 said:

No data to support this but I would guess the average stab wound is worse than the average gunshot wound, assuming it's not to the head. 

You guessed wrong. Why not simply first go look for the data?

From the NIH:

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"Within a 12-year period ending in March 1984, 1109 patients with penetrating thoracic injuries were treated at King-Drew Medical Center located in south central Los Angeles. The average age of the patients was 28.1 years. There were 607 stab wounds and 502 gunshot wounds. Antibiotic prophylaxis was prescribed only for the 428 patients who had laparotomy, thoracotomy, and pulmonary contusion with hemoptysis. Of the 1109 patients, 105 had cardiac injuries. All patients with cardiac trauma underwent thoracotomy, and the mortality rate was 18.1%. Specifically, the mortality rate of gunshot wound of the heart 24.5% and that of stab wound of the heart, 11.5%. In contrast, of the 1004 patients without cardiac injuries, only 115 required thoracotomy and the mortality rate in this group was 0.8% (8/1004). The mortality rate was 69.6% in patients who had a thoracotomy in the emergency room but only 2.8% in patients who had a thoracotomy in the operating room within the first 24 hours after admission. In the 242 patients who had associated abdominal injuries, the mortality rate was 2.1% (5/242), as compared with 2.5% (22/867) for those who had isolated chest injuries. In the entire group, the incidence of complications was 5.1%, of which 1.8% were infectious complications. The presence of associated abdominal injuries did not influence the outcome. The mortality rate in noncardiac thoracic injuries is very low compared with that of cardiac injury. Because of the complexity of the injury, gunshot wound of the heart has the highest mortality rate."

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Here's another study performed in Philadelphia which found a significant difference between mortality rates of each:

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"The study, published online ahead of print in the Annals of Emergency Medicine, examined 4,122 patients taken to eight Level I and Level II adult trauma centers in Philadelphia between January 1, 2003 and December 31, 2007. Of these, 2,961 were transported by EMS and 1,161 by the police. The overall mortality rate was 27.4 percent. Just over three quarters (77.9 percent) of the victims suffered gunshot wounds, and just under a quarter (22.1 percent) suffered stab wounds. The majority of patients in both groups (84.1 percent) had signs of life on delivery to the hospital. A third of patients with gunshot wounds (33.0 percent) died compared with 7.7 percent of patients with stab wounds."

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13 hours ago, DestinFlPackfan said:

One of the very worst uses of time is to do something very well that doesn't need to be done at all.

My second fap of the day is precious to me, your advice is nonsense

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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15 hours ago, BSUTOP25 said:

There’s a “town” in Northern Idaho named Elk City. It’s one of those places where it feels like eyes are always watching you even if you don’t see anyone. 

I'd put desert people up against them. If you are ever between Vegas and Kingman, AZ, check out all the Mad Max meets Unibomber desert homesteads around Chloride and Golden Valley, AZ. It makes Pahrump look like paradise.

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15 hours ago, Joe from WY said:

Mountain people are crazier than your garden variety Floridian. The Swamp People give them a run for their money though.

15 hours ago, BSUTOP25 said:

There’s a “town” in Northern Idaho named Elk City. It’s one of those places where it feels like eyes are always watching you even if you don’t see anyone. 

I'd include the hybrid-mountain/desert rats in our own backcountry. I used to think people moved out to BFE to get away from all the f*cktards, until work took me out near the border trail in distant East County for a while, at which point I realized that was where all the crazy folk hole up because they simply can't coexist in society. 

44 minutes ago, SharkTanked said:

I'd put desert people up against them. If you are ever between Vegas and Kingman, AZ, check out all the Mad Max meets Unibomber desert homesteads around Chloride and Golden Valley, AZ. It makes Pahrump look like paradise.

Don't forget whatever you call that shithole encampment just west of Quartzsite.

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12 minutes ago, TheSanDiegan said:

I'd include the hybrid-mountain/desert rats in our own backcountry. I used to think people moved out to BFE to get away from all the f*cktards, until work took me out near the border trail in distant East County for a while, at which point I realized that was where all the crazy folk hole up because they simply can't coexist in society. 

Don't forget whatever you call that shithole encampment just west of Quartzsite.

They also exist in the hills leading into Yosemite up the 120 highway..and on the backend of that park going through Bishop and that neck of CA.

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29 minutes ago, TheSanDiegan said:

I'd include the hybrid-mountain/desert rats in our own backcountry. I used to think people moved out to BFE to get away from all the f*cktards, until work took me out near the border trail in distant East County for a while, at which point I realized that was where all the crazy folk hole up because they simply can't coexist in society. 

Don't forget whatever you call that shithole encampment just west of Quartzsite.

You got it. Desert people are +++++ing crazy. Pretty sure they've evolved to hydrate from bathtub gin and derive nourishment from meth. If we would've sent those crazy mfers into Afganistan 10 yrs ago, the war would've been over 9 yrs and 10 months ago.

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14 hours ago, TheSanDiegan said:

You guessed wrong. Why not simply first go look for the data?

From the NIH:

Link

Here's another study performed in Philadelphia which found a significant difference between mortality rates of each:

Link

  I qualified my post by stating it was a guess.  Also see the time of the post.  I get 3-5 minute breaks in my day and have better things to do than research the mortality of gunshot wounds vs. knife wounds. I don't get why this would be an expectation of a reasonable person lol. 

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2 minutes ago, JADogs05 said:

  I qualified my post by stating it was a guess.  Also see the time of the post.  I get 3-5 minute breaks in my day and have better things to do than research the mortality of gunshot wounds vs. knife wounds. I don't get why this would be an expectation of a reasonable person lol. 

I get that, and I don't mean to offend.

I do however find it to be an intrinsically flawed approach, one I see handicap people in both their personal and professional lives. My late grandfather used to have a poster hanging above his workbench that read, "it's better to be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." I'm not saying you're foolish, but rather that the general approach of formulating an opinion (to any degree) before informing yourself is analogous to putting the proverbial cart before the horse. It can be perceived by some people as a character flaw that may play a role in their formulation of an opinion (of you).

Consider it nothing other than friendly advice when I suggest you adapt a process by which you first fill your cup before drinking from it. Call it a life hack, pro tip, etc.

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1 hour ago, TheSanDiegan said:

I get that, and I don't mean to offend.

I do however find it to be an intrinsically flawed approach, one I see handicap people in both their personal and professional lives. My late grandfather used to have a poster hanging above his workbench that read, "it's better to be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." I'm not saying you're foolish, but rather that the general approach of formulating an opinion (to any degree) before informing yourself is analogous to putting the proverbial cart before the horse. It can be perceived by some people as a character flaw that may play a role in their formulation of an opinion (of you).

Consider it nothing other than friendly advice when I suggest you adapt a process by which you first fill your cup before drinking from it. Call it a life hack, pro tip, etc.

MWCBoarding isn't really important enough for me to apply that. Again, I was speculating and noted that in the post.  Thanks. 

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19 hours ago, BSUTOP25 said:

There’s a “town” in Northern Idaho named Elk City. It’s one of those places where it feels like eyes are always watching you even if you don’t see anyone. 

I’ve been there once. It’s way off the grid. It reminded me of the movie Deliverance

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11 hours ago, JADogs05 said:

MWCBoarding isn't really important enough for me to apply that. Again, I was speculating and noted that in the post.  Thanks. 

I get where you were coming from.  Most guns wounds the attacker is shooting to kill, most knife wounds come in spats where the intent is to injure not kill.  Stabbing in the leg, shoulder, arm and overwhelmingly with cutlery or tiny pocket knives.  A stab wound with the intent to kill with something like a KA-Bar or Larado Bowie is pretty much a death sentence.  @TheSanDiegan stats about the non-lethality of most stab wounds to the chest makes sense when you consider how well protected the chest cavity is and the type of knives used in most attacks.  Your thinking was logical in that the wounds suffered from combat knives are very lethal.

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5 hours ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

I get where you were coming from.  Most guns wounds the attacker is shooting to kill, most knife wounds come in spats where the intent is to injure not kill.  Stabbing in the leg, shoulder, arm and overwhelmingly with cutlery or tiny pocket knives.  A stab wound with the intent to kill with something like a KA-Bar or Larado Bowie is pretty much a death sentence.  @TheSanDiegan stats about the non-lethality of most stab wounds to the chest makes sense when you consider how well protected the chest cavity is and the type of knives used in most attacks.  Your thinking was logical in that the wounds suffered from combat knives are very lethal.

Yeah I was basing it on my reading of military history which is much different than civilian crime. 

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12 hours ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

I get where you were coming from.  Most guns wounds the attacker is shooting to kill, most knife wounds come in spats where the intent is to injure not kill.  Stabbing in the leg, shoulder, arm and overwhelmingly with cutlery or tiny pocket knives.  A stab wound with the intent to kill with something like a KA-Bar or Larado Bowie is pretty much a death sentence.  @TheSanDiegan stats about the non-lethality of most stab wounds to the chest makes sense when you consider how well protected the chest cavity is and the type of knives used in most attacks.  Your thinking was logical in that the wounds suffered from combat knives are very lethal.

Wound placement is certainly a primary factor (see linked white paper in next paragraph), and your thought as to what accounts for any delta that might appear in large data sets makes a lot of sense. The other primary factor - as determined by the FBI - is the size of the permanent wound cavity. 

Following an shootout in Miami in the mid-'80s, the FBI performed a detailed analysis* (link) and determined shot placement and the volume of the permanent wound cavity were the two factors most responsible for determining the "effectiveness" of a wound. The study was focused/limited to handgun and handgun ammunition but I would imagine the physiological principles of wound dynamics remain the same. And as per the linked document, the volume of the permanent wound cavity is itself a function of penetration depth and the front-facing surface area of the penetrating object (cue penetration jokes now). As the penetration depth of all but the largest of knives is less than that of the average handgun caliber (only 30% of all handguns produced are small caliber), and as the depth of the wound cavity is by and large the singular greatest dimension, I would imagine the resulting size of the permanent wound cavity (and the resultant probability of rupturing a critical organ) is significantly smaller as well.

The other primary factor - front-facing surface area - is a function of the type of ammunition used (e.g., FMJ or JHP). Regardless of the caliber, in the instance of FMJ this factor skews in favor of most fixed-blade knives. As an (admittedly oversimplified) example, the spine thickness on a Mark 2 (while accepted nomenclature by casual collectors, "Ka-Bar" is a misnomer, as Ka-Bar makes a whole slew of knives in addition to the Mark 2 - hell, they weren't even the largest producers of Mark 2 during WWII - that honor belonged to Camillus†) is .165" and the blade width is 1.563". Ignoring the hollow grind and simplifying the distal taper (erring on the side of more surface area) gives us a front-facing surface area of just over a quarter-inch squared (.258" sq.). By contrast, using the same oversimplified formula, a 9mm round has a base area of only 1/10th of an inch squared (.099" sq.).

Thus, per lateral unit of distance penetration, a Mark 2 creates a larger permanent wound cavity than a FMJ of any handgun caliber. However, as already noted, the front-facing surface area is dwarfed by the depth of the cavity, which factors into the volume of the permanent wound cavity to a much greater degree. And as soon as you consider JHP rounds, the expansion of the round results in a front-facing surface area that is measurably greater than that of the Mark 2. For instance, most 9mm JHP rounds will expand to over .6" resulting in a surface area 4x greater than that of the Mark 2 and consequently, adding to what due to the greater penetration depth is already a significantly larger permanent wound cavity.

 

 

 

* While this was the study I would reference in the weaps class I used to teach for the state, I haven't gone in search of more recent studies (given the conclusiveness of the findings in this one), and there may be more recent white papers out there that discuss the subject.

† "The Mark 2," Knife World, Jan 1995

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