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halfmanhalfbronco

Growing call to separate black athletes from white athletes.

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23 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

You are awesome, Sir.

Any idea on how black people can realistically gain something closer to commensurate power in these billion dollar sports?  Salaries for the players?  It is not like anybody but the coaches are getting rich, the money is funneled back into the schools.  There are no owners or shareholders.  Maybe allowing players to profit of their likeness while in college?

A billion a year (well 986 mil) is spent on D1 scholarships, blacks fare well there. I admit ignorance, I am not sure what that looks like.  What are some of the ideas you have heard in academia or your own?  

There is another ongoing thread discussing payment to athletes by parties using their likenesses. That has its own set of problems which could lead to the destruction of college sports as we know it and hurt way more athletes than it helps. 

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55 minutes ago, youngrebelfan40 said:

 

I'm pretty familiar with this argument and it comes down to this: 

 

Some black folks are tired of mostly-white colleges exploiting black athletes for profit. Instead, they would prefer for black athletes to go to HBCUs, which in their mind would revitalize those struggling schools and put the power and money entwined in college sports in black hands. 

 

But, as you pointed out, given the current system, this actually happening is completely impossible, for several reasons.

 

First and foremost, as you wrote, the incentive to go to a major P5 program is off the charts in terms of professional development, perks, networking, and (in many cases), actual payments. Asking 17-18 year old kids to give all of that up and go to schools who have trouble maintaining the field and locker room is ridiculous, no matter what net racial benefit you try to sell them on. 

Secondly, as you mentioned, even HBCUs are under the purview of the NCAA. Any kind of talent drain I'm sure would be swiftly followed with investigations and backlash. 

 

Ultimately, this is NOT about segregation: black people advocating this are not for the reinstitution of legal apartheid. It's about black folks wanting to gain power commensurate with their contribution to the money-making machine that is college football and basketball. Unfortunately, pursuing movement to HBCU sport programs as a means to get there simply is unrealistic.

Great input although I think payment to athletes creates a whole other set of problems that could end up hurting more athletes than it helps. 

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26 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

You are awesome, Sir.

Any idea on how black people can realistically gain something closer to commensurate power in these billion dollar sports?  Salaries for the players?  It is not like anybody but the coaches are getting rich, the money is funneled back into the schools.  There are no owners or shareholders.  Maybe allowing players to profit of their likeness while in college?

A billion a year (well 986 mil) is spent on D1 scholarships, blacks fare well there. I admit ignorance, I am not sure what that looks like.  What are some of the ideas you have heard in academia or your own?  

It's a tricky situation because university sports and the NCAA are so embedded in athletics (especially football). I think that ultimately, player compensation or some kind of revenue sharing is the only realistic way to redirect some of the profit back to the black athlete.

 

Ultimately, to truly gain commensurate power, however, black folks would have to organize something outside of the NCAA entirely, or reform/destroy the NCAA. These are all very unlikely in the foreseeable future.

 

On 12/1/2016 at 12:26 PM, WyomingCoog said:

I own a vehicle likely worth more than everything you own combined and just flew first class (including a ticket for a 2 1/2 year old), round trip to Las Vegas and I'm not 35 yet. When you accomplish something outside of finishing a book, let me know. When's the last time you saw a 2 year old fly first class in their own seat? Don't tell me about elite.  

28 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

I’d happily compare IQ’s with you any day of the week.

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7 hours ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

From the BLM movement.  This was my public conversation with the leader of BLM of greater New York.  Yes I am self doxxing myself, no I don't care because I am insanely attractive

70300416_473642156814141_680250262226888

69860238_501492710628966_452179052326603

69587739_437148383675812_142130684263346

 

It started with activist/ sports journalist Jemele Hill's statements here https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/10/black-athletes-should-leave-white-colleges/596629/

I am a fan of the BLM movement and I would really like some other thoughts, particularly @youngrebelfan40's.

I also think I may have come across condescending.:(

 

It’s too bad that BLM is chock full of racists.

kat.jpg

 

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I'm fine if black folks want to do that. It's their choice where they attend school, and in some cases the HBCUs would offer a better education.

However, I get the sense that this is a "let's all walk out at once" fantasy. They can't force black athletes to choose HBCUs, and all black athletes won't choose HBCUs.

It's also remarkable to me, as others have said, that people of color fought and struggled to gain the same stage as whites, and have excelled since gaining entry, yet now want to separate themselves.

Furthermore, the dream that black riches will somehow invigorate black communities sounds like a "trickle down" theory to me. I think that wealthy blacks like to live in the same areas that wealthy whites live.

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6 hours ago, youngrebelfan40 said:

It's a tricky situation because university sports and the NCAA are so embedded in athletics (especially football). I think that ultimately, player compensation or some kind of revenue sharing is the only realistic way to redirect some of the profit back to the black athlete.

 

Ultimately, to truly gain commensurate power, however, black folks would have to organize something outside of the NCAA entirely, or reform/destroy the NCAA. These are all very unlikely in the foreseeable future.

 

My problem against paying players has always been the same.  The money is funneled back into the school.  There are not stakeholders getting personally wealthy, aside from coaches, (and I think the NCAA needs to put a cap on what coaches can earn.  Something like 6 million for your staff) the money is directed and invested back into the school and athletic department.  Ultimately paying for the the athletic scholarships and coaching staffs of the other sports.  The benefit to local communities in bringing all walks of life together to share in a common rooting interest is hard to quantify, but easy to see.  

Looking more into the way revenue from the two major sports is invested into scholarships and smaller programs you start to see why people are so hesitant to compensate football and basketball players with money that would ultimately take away from those sports.  Viewing it from a lens of racial equality, and correct me if I am wrong, at the vast majority of FBS schools the profit already goes back into the black community at a commensurate rate.  These revenues generated by the two sports are providing the athletes the other programs (majority black athletes just like the two revenue sports) with the tuition, facilities, coaching, training tables and other benefits that lead to a college experience they otherwise would not have had.  

Touching on my other point, the way communities rally around the local university you can see perhaps the most notable public benefit even if hard to put a direct number on.  On game day in Ohio, everybody is a Buckeye.  Fandom today is an equalizer across race and class if even for just a few hours on a Saturday.  Having a shared rooting interest in the community, city, even state in some cases pays huge societal dividends.  It gets strangers talking, you share your neighbors joy in victory and empathize with him in defeat.  

Maybe I am missing the mark but I fail to see how D1 athletics are anything put a positive for everybody, including black people.

 

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35 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

My problem against paying players has always been the same.  The money is funneled back into the school.  There are not stakeholders getting personally wealthy, aside from coaches, (and I think the NCAA needs to put a cap on what coaches can earn.  Something like 6 million for your staff) the money is directed and invested back into the school and athletic department.  Ultimately paying for the the athletic scholarships and coaching staffs of the other sports.  The benefit to local communities in bringing all walks of life together to share in a common rooting interest is hard to quantify, but easy to see.  

Looking more into the way revenue from the two major sports is invested into scholarships and smaller programs you start to see why people are so hesitant to compensate football and basketball players with money that would ultimately take away from those sports.  Viewing it from a lens of racial equality, and correct me if I am wrong, at the vast majority of FBS schools the profit already goes back into the black community at a commensurate rate.  These revenues generated by the two sports are providing the athletes the other programs (majority black athletes just like the two revenue sports) with the tuition, facilities, coaching, training tables and other benefits that lead to a college experience they otherwise would not have had.  

Touching on my other point, the way communities rally around the local university you can see perhaps the most notable public benefit even if hard to put a direct number on.  On game day in Ohio, everybody is a Buckeye.  Fandom today is an equalizer across race and class if even for just a few hours on a Saturday.  Having a shared rooting interest in the community, city, even state in some cases pays huge societal dividends.  It gets strangers talking, you share your neighbors joy in victory and empathize with him in defeat.  

Maybe I am missing the mark but I fail to see how D1 athletics are anything put a positive for everybody, including black people.

 

You're not wrong in your assertion that the current system does produce a lot of benefit for black athletes in non-moneymaking sports. And I agree that sports have good effects on the community, etc. But ultimately, from the perspective of those who advocate a return to HBCUs, top athletes in moneymaking sports are still not compensated fairly, and the decision-making and power in the NCAA and university sports system lies almost solely in white hands.

Self-determination in their view would be a moral victory that would outweigh the initial tangible benefits of serving the current system, and provide black folks a sense of community outside of current fandoms, which they view as far more beneficial. Plus, as Mr. Newsome in your OP stated, there is a hope that eventually some of those same benefits you were referring to would eventually crop up again after a significant amount of investment. And if the profit black athletes generate goes back to the schools they play for, they want those schools to represent black folks and their interests. 

 

On 12/1/2016 at 12:26 PM, WyomingCoog said:

I own a vehicle likely worth more than everything you own combined and just flew first class (including a ticket for a 2 1/2 year old), round trip to Las Vegas and I'm not 35 yet. When you accomplish something outside of finishing a book, let me know. When's the last time you saw a 2 year old fly first class in their own seat? Don't tell me about elite.  

28 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

I’d happily compare IQ’s with you any day of the week.

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I can't help but think Jackie Robinson would be doing a major facepalm with this. I agree that the Historical Black College route is a non-starter.

In my non-expert opinion, speaking from my white privilege perch, black athletes could grow their influence within the existing power structure via their alumni donations. For instance, I believe professional athletes (NFL, NBA, etc.) should take the lead on this by influencing policy through their pocket books. Wouldn't the Alabamas, Clemsons, Dukes, Kentuckys, and North Carolinas of the world be more apt to restructure the way they operate depending on where the flow of money is coming from? How many former black players to the P5 powerhouses have making millions of dollars in the professional leagues? Not to mention, all the former black college athletes who are now working higher paying corporate and entrepreneurial jobs as a result of the education they received and networks they built while at school. 

At the end of the day, money influences things. So if the objective is to bring more equity or resources to the college black athlete, current and former pro athletes could really move the needle with that. The college game needs to start thinking about a uniform salary and post-school coverage for life altering injuries. @youngrebelfan40 .. what do you think, is my lens off? 

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32 minutes ago, youngrebelfan40 said:

You're not wrong in your assertion that the current system does produce a lot of benefit for black athletes in non-moneymaking sports. And I agree that sports have good effects on the community, etc. But ultimately, from the perspective of those who advocate a return to HBCUs, top athletes in moneymaking sports are still not compensated fairly, and the decision-making and power in the NCAA and university sports system lies almost solely in white hands.

Self-determination in their view would be a moral victory that would outweigh the initial tangible benefits of serving the current system, and provide black folks a sense of community outside of current fandoms, which they view as far more beneficial. Plus, as Mr. Newsome in your OP stated, there is a hope that eventually some of those same benefits you were referring to would eventually crop up again after a significant amount of investment. And if the profit black athletes generate goes back to the schools they play for, they want those schools to represent black folks and their interests. 

 

Thanks, I see where they are coming from a little better.  I am not sure they understand why there is so much money in college athletics.  The quality of athletes plays a role, a large one.  But the single biggest reason for the influx of money is advertisers wanting to reach the huge fan bases of the major schools.  I would argue that current academia, even if not at a HBCU does a lot to represent black folk and their interests.  It also needs to be realized that compensating the best black athletes for the few years they are at college would have a direct negative impact on black athletes, especially women, in other sport and in greater numbers.  I think a good middle ground would be allowing athletes to profit outside the university structure on their celebrity and likeness.  Even then I could see some unsavory recruiting going on (sign with Bama and I will pay you 50k a weekend to give these beautiful models fashion advice).

I get it though, what they are saying and they do have legitimate gripes, especially in representation in the power structure of major collegiate athletics.  I do not think there is anything malicious in this attitude towards bringing black athletes to black colleges.  I just think it is poorly thought out, they do not have the understanding of college athletics that guys who spends hours a week on a message board do. 

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10 hours ago, youngrebelfan40 said:

It's a tricky situation because university sports and the NCAA are so embedded in athletics (especially football). I think that ultimately, player compensation or some kind of revenue sharing is the only realistic way to redirect some of the profit back to the black athlete.

 

Ultimately, to truly gain commensurate power, however, black folks would have to organize something outside of the NCAA entirely, or reform/destroy the NCAA. These are all very unlikely in the foreseeable future.

 

And the apparatus of power money around college athletics is extremely diffuse. Who is benefiting? Coaches, Athletic directors, assistant coaches, nutritionists are the obvious ones. That's also probably the simplest area where black players can flex their muscles. "Hey, Coach Swinney, yes, you are a very good coach, however, you have 2 black people in the whole athletic support staff while Ole Miss's is 2/5 black, I'm going to go there instead". That kind of stuff could really make changes. Unfortunately, that's a drop in the bucket. Next is all of the media coverage. ESPN doesn't pay to air these sports because it doesn't make them money. I don't know how black people can capture some of that revenue. The next level is uniform companies, which profit from having athletes in their uniforms. Same issue with ESPN. Further up, the entire university benefits greatly. That's a whole different story - how public institutions have disproportionately less black control or influence than population demographics would expect. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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I want to say. THis is a great thread with a lot of good respectful discussion.

I think they idea has some merit for the people proposing it. If all the best black college athletes went to HBCU then those games would become more demanded to broadcast because that is where the best players and games would be. THis would cause more money to flow into those conferences(what do they play in FCS?D2?). They wouldn't need to join the FBS/create a new conference. It would happen slowly but those games would become the must watch games for ESPN/ FOX and would lead to more money into those schools and help rise the the status of the schools as well. They might not reach the level of the current large conferences but it would shift some of the power that direction. Which I understand as a desired goal.

I also see this as a what if/wish list. They aren't saying they should force these athletes to go there, just imagine if they did. And maybe the goal is to start slowly. If they can convince a few high profile recruits into the HBCU it might start something where in later years it will make more sense for more top athletes to make that choice and then more and more and then who knows.

Ultimately, I think it is an unrealistic but worthy goal/discussion.

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15 hours ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

From the BLM movement.  This was my public conversation with the leader of BLM of greater New York.  Yes I am self doxxing myself, no I don't care because I am insanely attractive

70300416_473642156814141_680250262226888

69860238_501492710628966_452179052326603

69587739_437148383675812_142130684263346

 

It started with activist/ sports journalist Jemele Hill's statements here https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/10/black-athletes-should-leave-white-colleges/596629/

I am a fan of the BLM movement and I would really like some other thoughts, particularly @youngrebelfan40's.

I also think I may have come across condescending.:(

 

This was talked about on Fox News. It didn't go Fox News' way. They missed the point you did.

 

 

 

More, some of the HBCU's are majority white now.

https://newsone.com/3822712/hbcu-enrollment-white-students/

 

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/a3ampj/inside-the-lives-of-white-students-at-historically-black-colleges

"On her first visit to West Virginia State University a decade ago, Leisha Salyer, who is white, did not even realize WVSU was a historically black college. On an average weekday, the school of 3,800 bustles with white commuter students who are West Virginia residents—65 percent of the total student body is white..."

 

https://time.com/2907332/historically-black-colleges-increasingly-serve-white-students/

"It also seemed incongruous, given that the conference was for minorities, the college is historically black — and Kirby is white.

So are 82 percent of the students at West Virginia’s Bluefield State College, which nonetheless qualifies for a share of the more than a quarter of a billion dollars a year in special funding the federal government set aside for historically black colleges and universities in 2011, the last year for which figures are available."

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, tspoke said:

I want to say. THis is a great thread with a lot of good respectful discussion.

I think they idea has some merit for the people proposing it. If all the best black college athletes went to HBCU then those games would become more demanded to broadcast because that is where the best players and games would be. THis would cause more money to flow into those conferences(what do they play in FCS?D2?). They wouldn't need to join the FBS/create a new conference. It would happen slowly but those games would become the must watch games for ESPN/ FOX and would lead to more money into those schools and help rise the the status of the schools as well. They might not reach the level of the current large conferences but it would shift some of the power that direction. Which I understand as a desired goal.

I also see this as a what if/wish list. They aren't saying they should force these athletes to go there, just imagine if they did. And maybe the goal is to start slowly. If they can convince a few high profile recruits into the HBCU it might start something where in later years it will make more sense for more top athletes to make that choice and then more and more and then who knows.

Ultimately, I think it is an unrealistic but worthy goal/discussion.

I really wonder if that would be the case... Is the draw to see the best talent greater than the draw to see the ole Alma Mater or the local team? I think a lot of the media decisions revolve around (1) market and (2) alumni base for college sports (especially football). I think the HBC is at a large disadvantage over the big state schools in both of those categories. In other words, I don't think the eyeballs (and subsequently the money) will follow the talent. Sure some will, but I don't even think most would, especially in college sports where the tradition and loyalty to institutions runs extremely deep and is provincial in origin. Maybe that attitude is generational though and will die off with the Boomers?

And can you imagine the backlash this will have from the old white community? Wow. Whether you agree or not, you know all the racists in this country (many of whom now have power like at no other time since the 60's) will have a field day stoking the smoldering racism in this country. The culture war is already getting out of hand and just seems to need a match to light the fuse. A certain generation seems intent on blowing the whole +++++ing thing up before they die off.

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12 minutes ago, DoubleBlueGold said:

This was talked about on Fox News. It didn't go Fox News' way. They missed the point you did.

 

 

 

More, some of the HBCU's are majority white now.

https://newsone.com/3822712/hbcu-enrollment-white-students/

 

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/a3ampj/inside-the-lives-of-white-students-at-historically-black-colleges

"On her first visit to West Virginia State University a decade ago, Leisha Salyer, who is white, did not even realize WVSU was a historically black college. On an average weekday, the school of 3,800 bustles with white commuter students who are West Virginia residents—65 percent of the total student body is white..."

 

https://time.com/2907332/historically-black-colleges-increasingly-serve-white-students/

"It also seemed incongruous, given that the conference was for minorities, the college is historically black — and Kirby is white.

So are 82 percent of the students at West Virginia’s Bluefield State College, which nonetheless qualifies for a share of the more than a quarter of a billion dollars a year in special funding the federal government set aside for historically black colleges and universities in 2011, the last year for which figures are available."

 

 

 

Interesting. I was ignorant re most of this.

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1 hour ago, Bob said:

Anyway, if all the best black athletes decided too go to HBCs, then the money would eventually follow and the HBCs would become the new Alabamas, Clemsons, Texases and Oklahomas from an athletic standpoint. It' would take a while, but it would happen. The pioneering black athletes to do this would get screwed, but they would be paving the way. But what would be the point? Didn't black people fight for centuries for the right to live equal to whites? Seems like a step backwards

It's a little more nuanced than that. I can't find an article providing background to this that I read a couple days ago. It profiled an academic paper that demonstrated the very high percentage of black professionals (doctors, engineers, lawyers, etc.) that graduated from HBCs. In most fields it's well over 50% of black professionals that are coming from those schools. As I recall it showed that blacks made up 55% of P5 football players, yet were only 5.5% of the overall student population at those schools. This was seen as a problem, as the schools most responsible for professional development of black Americans are not benefiting from the huge revenues generated by the athletic prowess of black athletes.  I suppose that initially some black athletes would receive less attention, but given the way HS athletes are tracked today it's hard for me to imagine that NFL scouts wouldn't start scouting those schools very quickly.

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19 minutes ago, Old_SD_Dude said:

It's a little more nuanced than that. I can't find an article providing background to this that I read a couple days ago. It profiled an academic paper that demonstrated the very high percentage of black professionals (doctors, engineers, lawyers, etc.) that graduated from HBCs. In most fields it's well over 50% of black professionals that are coming from those schools. As I recall it showed that blacks made up 55% of P5 football players, yet were only 5.5% of the overall student population at those schools. This was seen as a problem, as the schools most responsible for professional development of black Americans are not benefiting from the huge revenues generated by the athletic prowess of black athletes.  I suppose that initially some black athletes would receive less attention, but given the way HS athletes are tracked today it's hard for me to imagine that NFL scouts wouldn't start scouting those schools very quickly.

In much of the midwest and west, there simply aren't many black people period.  Is it wrong for schools like Wyoming or Boise St to recruit California, Chicago, the south etc. for black athletes or should they primarily go with white athletes that are around their states?  Even states like Pennsylvania are only about 10% black.  Should the gov't mandate that blacks families in Mississippi and Georgia move to these states?  

 It seems to me the school and the black athlete both win on getting scholarships to big schools even if they are predominately white.  As far as more black students in general, yeah that is really the issue here I think and many of these schools should try to get more black and hispanic students in general. 

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13 minutes ago, pokerider said:

In much of the midwest and west, there simply aren't many black people period.  Is it wrong for schools like Wyoming or Boise St to recruit California, Chicago, the south etc. for black athletes or should they primarily go with white athletes that are around their states?  Even states like Pennsylvania are only about 10% black.  Should the gov't mandate that blacks families in Mississippi and Georgia move to these states?  

 It seems to me the school and the black athlete both win on getting scholarships to big schools even if they are predominately white.  As far as more black students in general, yeah that is really the issue here I think and many of these schools should try to get more black and hispanic students in general. 

Nothing I read argues for the government to do anything. It simply pointed out the large role of black athletes in generating huge revenues for universities that enroll few blacks overall, while at the same time showing that the colleges most responsible for professional advancement of blacks are not benefiting from college athletics. If you acknowledge that there is an underlying problem with this situation, having top black athletes attend HBCs would be one way to address the problem. Hard for me to imagine them doing so.

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5 minutes ago, Old_SD_Dude said:

Nothing I read argues for the government to do anything. It simply pointed out the large role of black athletes in generating huge revenues for universities that enroll few blacks overall, while at the same time showing that the colleges most responsible for professional advancement of blacks are not benefiting from college athletics. If you acknowledge that there is an underlying problem with this situation, having top black athletes attend HBCs would be one way to address the problem. 

Like I said, black athletes to big schools that may be predominately white is a win win for everyone imo.  These athletes get a scholarship - a scholarship is a bfd!  
These great athletes should go to the school that fits their individual needs the best.  I also hate how its so easy to lump all black athletes together like their some commodity of the same thing.  

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