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westfan

Omar and Talib

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1 hour ago, Nevada Convert said:

Stop looking at this as an American, and step into Israel’s shoes and reality. You’re being totally naive that protests of this nature are harmless to Israel. In that part of the world, the Palestinians would view letting them in for a protest against Israel as a sign of weakness, and it would embolden & boost morale among the militant Palestinians.

Good Lord, you see that as an opportunity to showcase the .5 quad’s antisemitic views for the world to see? How many times must they say & express it to make you happy?  They’ve already showcased it many times for the world to see, and it would be another ‘par for the course’ kind of boring event if they had gone. By not letting them in for a protest, this will really get the attention of the world because it’s such an unusual thing to do. A lot of people (not the anti-Israeli hater hacks) will think, wow!, they must have said some horrible things for Israel to take this action. 

You also seem to think this is some sort of official US gov business. It’s not, and if it were, Israel stated that they’d absolutely be allowed in. 

 

Yeah, that’s not what’s happening. What’s happening is instead of these pro-BDS reps being disavowed by their own party for their tactics and rhetoric which as has been the bipartisan stance, the two have been put front and center and the Democrats are rallying around them. Bibi turned it into a partisan issue, putting the interests of Israel at the whims of the next election. Who cares what the toothless world is gonna think if they lose one of the two major parties in the country that matters most to them? 

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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1 hour ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Sadly, there are nearly 5 million Palestinians in the neighboring Arab countries.  They are denied basic human rights there as well and used a political pawns to put pressure on Israel and punish Palestinian leadership when they do things they do not like (See the support of Saddam).  Jordan is the only place they are treated somewhat humane and even there they are a second class people.

How can 5M+ people not have their own country? Have they been nomads wandering around the region for centuries and never settling anywhere? Hell it only took ISIS a few months to organize and establish their own caliphate in Iraq and Syria. If we had stayed out of it they would still be there dictating to the region. 

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8 minutes ago, soupslam1 said:

How can 5M+ people not have their own country? Have they been nomads wandering around the region for centuries and never settling anywhere? Hell it only took ISIS a few months to organize and establish their own caliphate in Iraq and Syria. If we had stayed out of it they would still be there dictating to the region. 

Well, from the 16 century through WW1 you had the Ottoman Empire providing stability and prosperity (relatively) to the area.  So "Palestinians" had a country.  The Ottoman Empire and things were mostly good.  After the fall of the Ottoman empire the British took control of the area and were given a mandate in the 20's by the UN prior to establish a Jewish State in the land.  The local Arabs started forming small armies to oppose this and it was pretty volatile, so got put on the back burner.  Shortly after some guy in Germany made a stink of things.  After WWII you know the rest.

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42 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Well, from the 16 century through WW1 you had the Ottoman Empire providing stability and prosperity (relatively) to the area.  So "Palestinians" had a country.  The Ottoman Empire and things were mostly good.  After the fall of the Ottoman empire the British took control of the area and were given a mandate in the 20's by the UN prior to establish a Jewish State in the land.  The local Arabs started forming small armies to oppose this and it was pretty volatile, so got put on the back burner.  Shortly after some guy in Germany made a stink of things.  After WWII you know the rest.

The Zionists started the violence against the Palestinians. They bombed the King David Hotel, and invented the car bomb.

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Also there's some great irony in @Nevada Convert telling me to "quit thinking like an American" on the issue. LMAO. For someone who couldn't find Israel on a map, he sure talks a big game when he gets triggered.  Pretty funny that his Likud-ish talking points are almost exclusively an American view outside of right wing greater Israel, of course. 

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2 hours ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Well, from the 16 century through WW1 you had the Ottoman Empire providing stability and prosperity (relatively) to the area.  So "Palestinians" had a country.  The Ottoman Empire and things were mostly good.  After the fall of the Ottoman empire the British took control of the area and were given a mandate in the 20's by the UN prior to establish a Jewish State in the land.  The local Arabs started forming small armies to oppose this and it was pretty volatile, so got put on the back burner.  Shortly after some guy in Germany made a stink of things.  After WWII you know the rest.

The Ottoman Empire stabilized the hell out of the Armenians that's for sure...

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11 hours ago, mugtang said:

And Israel reversed the decision but now neither of them are going anyway...so :shrug:

So Tlaib looks like an angry bitch, Israel looks golden and the MWC board think tank who believe they understand Israeli foreign policy better than Netanyahu can STFU again.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/israeli-minister-rips-tlaib-for-nixing-trip-says-her-hate-for-israel-overcomes-love-for-her-grandmother

       

 

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5 minutes ago, easybronc said:

So Tlaib looks like an angry bitch, Israel looks golden and the MWC board think tank who believe they understand Israeli foreign policy better than Netanyahu can STFU again.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/israeli-minister-rips-tlaib-for-nixing-trip-says-her-hate-for-israel-overcomes-love-for-her-grandmother

This is what I don't understand.  There is no genealogy of historical record for Palestine.  It was a group of mixed off shoots in the middle east and really only in recent history. They want land that historically is not theirs. They have no claim to any land.

Israel should continue to help and foster those on the 'borders ', but it's their land and they should be the ones who make the decisions, not us.

 

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17 hours ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

Because they are they are Congresswomen of their most powerful and vital ally. Because they are supposedly our most important ally in the region not because they work well with us in intelligence gathering, but because they are supposedly unique in sharing the values of western civilization. If they’re simply going to act like any other tin horn, repressive regime like all the others, why the hell should we look at them as anything other than a transactional relationship like all our other “allies” in the region? Jesus man, they had a golden opportunity to let two idiots, Omar especially, come and show our country and the world their antisemitism. Instead they look just like any other regime in the Middle East, using their authority to silence critics not because those critics are liars, but because they fear what they say rings true.

Except Bibi and the right wing extremists they represent don’t have shared values with anyone in the US except Y’all Quida. The right wing government is systematically trying to drive out/exterminate the Palestinians.  It’s about time these people have a voice in the halls of Congress.

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7 hours ago, Joe from WY said:

Also there's some great irony in @Nevada Convert telling me to "quit thinking like an American" on the issue. LMAO. For someone who couldn't find Israel on a map, he sure talks a big game when he gets triggered.  Pretty funny that his Likud-ish talking points are almost exclusively an American view outside of right wing greater Israel, of course. 

I can’t find Israel on a map? WTF is that? Dude, I learned where Israel was when I was 5 years old in Sunday School class when my teacher showed us where Israel and the US were on a round globe. LOL. Nice try. 

I guess you’re right that you don’t see Israel’s perspective as a typical American. It’s not that you don’t know what Israel’s perspective is, you just don’t care nor do you want to be fair about Israel’s interests. It’s that evil Zionist Israel. It appears very obvious that you’re a hopeless partisan and can’t be objective on the subject. 

If you were fair and objective, you’d admit that there’s been fault on both sides in dealing with the conflict over the years. Can you even admit that blowing up Israeli people in busses and cafes made the Palestinians become viewed as pro-terrorism to achieve their goals? And it didn’t stop until they built that wall. Can you condemn that terrorist strategy? Certainly Israel has done unacceptable things to the Palestinians, as well. I’m not picking on the P’s. Hence, the reality that both sides share plenty of blame. Or do you think it’s been pretty much one sided. That’s my take away of you, so correct me if I’m wrong. 

Oh, sorry, I don’t follow Lukid or their talking points. That’s just you getting really defensive and pulling things out of your butt. 

kat.jpg

 

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On 8/16/2019 at 5:23 PM, Joe from WY said:

The Zionists started the violence against the Palestinians. They bombed the King David Hotel, and invented the car bomb.

Yeah, not exactly true.  Again the LoN Mandate for Britain to find a state for the Jews was post WWI.  It was met with the following in mandate Palestine.

The battle of Tel Hai in 1920, the Jaffra riots to the Palestine riots of 1929 (not the later ones).  These were all conflicts where Arabs were the responsible party long before the bombing of the King David Hotel and after the UN Mandate for a Jewish state in the region.  Then you can go into the labor strike in the late 30's which was a cluster and a half.  Zionist militants were not active until 1938, and yeah they were extreme in the following years, considering everything else going on at the time with their people it is almost (not really) understandable.  

But no, they did not start the violence in the region, it was started well before WWII and only after the LoN's Palestinian mandate to settle Jews in the area, and it was started by Arabs.

 

 

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Israel is the one true ally we have in the Middle East. I don’t pretend to know about their history with the Palestinians, but it appears Hamas is always the ones instigating terror on the Israelis who in turn react with three times the force. I can’t imagine being surrounded on all sides by countries that hate you and have openly stated their goal is to annihilate you.

I suspect you would live with a continuous high degree of apprehension. How do you think we would react if Mexico was lobbying rockets into San Diego? 

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Look there is plenty of blame to go around from both parties about how things are where they are today.  But the fact of the matter is right now Israel is acting as the provocateur to destabilize and create conflict.  You just can't have settlers stealing land, the army killing people, and ghettoizing people.  It just isn't fair and it wouldn't be fair if the Arabs were doing it to the Jews either.  

The fact of the matter is Israel has a right wing government of religious fundamentalists that is supported by a right wing US government supported by religious fundamentalists.  The Palestinians in charge seem like they are less fundamentalist than they were in the past and are looking for pragmatic solutions.  The one thing you can say for sure in this conflict is that the fundamentalists are usually the ones causing the problems at any given point in time.

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13 hours ago, sactowndog said:

Except Bibi and the right wing extremists they represent don’t have shared values with anyone in the US except Y’all Quida. The right wing government is systematically trying to drive out/exterminate the Palestinians.  It’s about time these people have a voice in the halls of Congress.

Exterminate? Easy there SactownConvert, not everybody you disagree with has to be Nazi’s. Like damn man, if you want to ascribe the Jews the negative intention their enemies have literally expressed, at least pick a conspiracy theory that fits in with the rest of the anti-semetic ones. They can’t control the media, and the Illuminati, and the weather, and also be completely inept at genocide. 

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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5 hours ago, Akkula said:

Look there is plenty of blame to go around from both parties about how things are where they are today.  But the fact of the matter is right now Israel is acting as the provocateur to destabilize and create conflict.  You just can't have settlers stealing land, the army killing people, and ghettoizing people.  It just isn't fair and it wouldn't be fair if the Arabs were doing it to the Jews either.  

The fact of the matter is Israel has a right wing government of religious fundamentalists that is supported by a right wing US government supported by religious fundamentalists.  The Palestinians in charge seem like they are less fundamentalist than they were in the past and are looking for pragmatic solutions.  The one thing you can say for sure in this conflict is that the fundamentalists are usually the ones causing the problems at any given point in time.

Lol in what way are the Palestinians any more pragmatic than in the past? Are they launching less rockets? Sending less money to terrorists? Sorry bud, they’re religious right wing fundamentalists too. And some religious right wing fundamentalists are different so much that a difference in degree is actually a difference in kind. Those rockets don’t go off by themselves.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/05/02/world/middleeast/palestinians-abbas-israel-jews.amp.html

May 2, 2018

RAMALLAH, West Bank — The Palestinian leader’s long, rambling speech was laced with deeply anti-Semitic tropes, including that the Jews of Europe brought persecution and the Holocaust upon themselves because of usury, banking and their “social function.”

Israel, he said, grew out of a European colonial project that had nothing to do with Jewish history or aspirations.

And citing a widely discredited book from the 1970s by Arthur Koestler called “The Thirteenth Tribe,” he posited that Ashkenazi Jews were descended not from the biblical Israelites but from the Khazars, a Turkic people who converted to Judaism in the eighth century.

Opening a rare gathering of the Palestine Liberation Organization’s legislative body in the West Bank city of Ramallah on Monday night, Mahmoud Abbas, the chairman of the group and the president of the Western-backed Palestinian Authority, also declared that he wanted the Palestinians to live in peace in an independent Palestinian state alongside Israel.

But instead of stirring international sympathy for his cause, he stirred outrage. The furor following his speech underscored what many critics view as the increasing irrelevance of Mr. Abbas, now in his 80s, the bankruptcy of the organization he leads, and the chasm between his stated goal and any imminent prospect of the Palestinians achieving it.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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On 8/17/2019 at 3:50 AM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Yeah, not exactly true.  Again the UN Mandate for Britain to find a state for the Jews was post WWI.  It was met with the following in mandate Palestine.

The battle of Tel Hai in 1920, the Jaffra riots to the Palestine riots of 1929 (not the later ones).  These were all conflicts where Arabs were the responsible party long before the bombing of the King David Hotel and after the UN Mandate for a Jewish state in the region.  Then you can go into the labor strike in the late 30's which was a cluster and a half.  Zionist militants were not active until 1938, and yeah they were extreme in the following years, considering everything else going on at the time with their people it is almost (not really) understandable.  

But no, they did not start the violence in the region, it was started well before WWII and only after the UN's Palestinian mandate to settle Jews in the area, and it was started by Arabs.

 

 

I'm confused by your invocation of the UN here.... it didn't exist in the time period that you're referencing.

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On 8/16/2019 at 3:03 PM, thelawlorfaithful said:

Yeah, that’s not what’s happening. What’s happening is instead of these pro-BDS reps being disavowed by their own party for their tactics and rhetoric which as has been the bipartisan stance, the two have been put front and center and the Democrats are rallying around them. Bibi turned it into a partisan issue, putting the interests of Israel at the whims of the next election. Who cares what the toothless world is gonna think if they lose one of the two major parties in the country that matters most to them? 

Agreed. And with regard to our two major parties, I'm almost more disgusted at Pelosi and the Dems jumping in with both feet to defend the two anti-Semitic representatives than with the likes of Mitch McConnell defending Trump. Granted McConnell has done so many times whereas to this point Pelosi's defense of Omar and Talibe has been a one-time event but Trump is the president whereas those two women have virtually no political power.

Did I ever say we need a third major party?

Boom goes the dynamite.

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On 8/16/2019 at 3:24 PM, soupslam1 said:

How can 5M+ people not have their own country? Have they been nomads wandering around the region for centuries and never settling anywhere? Hell it only took ISIS a few months to organize and establish their own caliphate in Iraq and Syria. If we had stayed out of it they would still be there dictating to the region. 

Well if numbers matter, the Palestinians have nothing on the Kurds, of whom there are more than 30 million who three garbage countries, Turkey, Iran and Iraq, refuse to allow to create a completely logical country.

Boom goes the dynamite.

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On 8/16/2019 at 3:40 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Well, from the 16 century through WW1 you had the Ottoman Empire providing stability and prosperity (relatively) to the area.  So "Palestinians" had a country.  The Ottoman Empire and things were mostly good.  After the fall of the Ottoman empire the British took control of the area and were given a mandate in the 20's by the UN LEAGUE OF NATIONS prior to establish a Jewish State in the land.  The local Arabs started forming small armies to oppose this and it was pretty volatile, so got put on the back burner.  Shortly after some guy in Germany made a stink of things.  After WWII you know the rest.

Fixed for accuracy. What's the difference? For one thing, the US never joined the LON despite our president being instrumental in its founding.

Boom goes the dynamite.

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