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mugtang

Mass shooting in Dayton, Ohio

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16 hours ago, Rebelbacker said:

Instead of a symptom why don't we actually go after the problem? How about we start spending much more money on actually treating mental health issues? How about we actually treat people instead of just giving them a cabinet full of pills?

First, shut the +++++ up.  Republicans have ZERO interest in addressing mental health, it's just the deflection you guys use to avoid talking about guns.  Then when the rubber hits the road, Trump vetoes any mental health legislation. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-signs-bill-revoking-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-n727221

Second, mentally ill people seem ONLY, in your world, to be white.  When's the last time someone reacted to an ISIS-inspired shooting or a gang shooting with "those people need better mental health care!"?

Never.  It's literally NEVER happened.

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13 hours ago, Joe from WY said:

So much for this being some sort of "white nationalist" shooting. Sounds like the guy was a garden variety lunatic. 

https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/local/new-details-dayton-shooter-obsessed-with-killing-bellbrook-classmates-say/uCuyd2JeZzo70NDgArsqOI/

And a registered, pro-socialist Democrat who supported Elizabeth Warren. Guess that might explain Orange's disappearance...

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/aug/4/connor-betts-ohio-gunman-was-elizabeth-warren-supp/

https://heavy.com/news/2019/08/connor-betts-twitter-politics-social-media/ 

 

Right, I'm avoiding the discussion because ONE of the three shooters that killed 33 people over the past week happened to not be a white supremacist trump-fellator.

How do you manage to even navigate a grocery store being this +++++ing retarded?

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1 minute ago, mysfit said:

In terms of these mass casualty attacks, mental health is a dog whistle.

 

Hatred is not a mental illness. It's not the problem. 

 

 

Precisely.  None of these shooters will turn out to have had a diagnosed mental illness.  I guarantee it.

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3 minutes ago, mysfit said:

In terms of these mass casualty attacks, mental health is a dog whistle.

 

Hatred is not a mental illness. It's not the problem. 

 

 

I'm sorry.  Hatred and mental instability is a problem.  

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14 minutes ago, pokebball said:

I'm sorry.  Hatred and mental instability is a problem.  

They're both problems, but hatred is FAR more likely to result in a body count, contrary to popular GOP belief (or stated belief).

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Just now, Orange said:

They're both problems, but hatred is FAR more likely to result in a body count, contrary to popular GOP belief (or stated belief).

The combination of both is far more likely to result in a body count, contrary to your belief.

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6 minutes ago, pokebball said:

The combination of both is far more likely to result in a body count, contrary to your belief.

Okay, school is in:

http://cdrnys.org/blog/disability-politics/on-mass-shootings-and-mental-disability/

Issue 1: The link is based on a misunderstanding of logic and probability.

People think there must be a link between mental disability and violence because they buy into a backwards version of common sense, an assumption that seems logical, but just isn’t. It seems like many of the people who commit these crimes have mental health problems, so it feels sensible somehow to conclude we need to change how we deal with mental disability.

The thing is, even if every single mass shooter was mentally disabled, it would still mean that the vast, enormous majority of all mentally disabled people are not potential mass shooters, or more likely to be violent. In fact, research indicates that mentally disabled people are far more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators. Mentally disabled people are simply not more likely to be violent.

It is certainly possible that some particular mass killings could have been be prevented if someone at the right moment had taken a little more interest in what’s going on with a particular angry, confused, and possibly mentally ill person. But that requires an individual approach, and a lot of luck, not major policy changes that affect the entire mental disability community.

Issue 2: Blaming mental disability for massacres like Orlando increases the stigma of mental disability.

Unfortunately, this upside-down logic of causes and probabilities is extremely common. We see it in the Islamophobic response to many of the very same incidents. We hear a lot about terrorism committed by Muslims. Therefore, Muslims are all be potential terrorists. Of course, the key thing here is that this fallacy is supported by pre-existing prejudices about the groups in question. People aren’t afraid of mentally disabled people only because of actual shootings they’ve seen and heard about, but also because of the fear, prejudice, and social stigma that have hung around mental illness for centuries.

This kind of thinking misleads us, and also makes mental disability stigma worse, a lot worse. This, in turn, makes it harder for mentally disabled people to stay in school, get jobs, rent apartments, even maintain lasting friendships and relationships. It further poisons lives that are already poisoned by prejudice. Like other forms of ableism, stigma against mental disability is often more debilitating than mental disability itself. We need less of it, not more.

Issue 3: Attributing mass violence to mental illness can lead to policy changes that restrict the basic human rights of mentally ill people.

When politicians cite mental disability as some sort of “cause” of terrible crimes, they usually have policy changes in mind that would erode the freedom of mentally disabled people. These can include restrictions on buying guns … which frankly, doesn’t bother me much, because I think guns should be harder for everyone to get. However, it’s a very small step from there to much drastic restrictions on personal choice and basic freedom.

Let’s make sure they take the medications, regardless of what they want or how bad the side effects are. Let employers know who’s had mental problems, so they don’t unknowingly hire a volatile person or potential murderer. Maybe we should make it easier to keep mentally disabled people locked up, where we can look after them and they can’t hurt anyone.

Let’s not kid ourselves. None of these ideas are motivated by a genuine desire for better mental health care. It is always, at bottom, about legally micro-managing an entire group people because we are irrationally afraid of them. There is a word for that.

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3 minutes ago, Orange said:

Okay, school is in:

http://cdrnys.org/blog/disability-politics/on-mass-shootings-and-mental-disability/

Issue 1: The link is based on a misunderstanding of logic and probability.

People think there must be a link between mental disability and violence because they buy into a backwards version of common sense, an assumption that seems logical, but just isn’t. It seems like many of the people who commit these crimes have mental health problems, so it feels sensible somehow to conclude we need to change how we deal with mental disability.

The thing is, even if every single mass shooter was mentally disabled, it would still mean that the vast, enormous majority of all mentally disabled people are not potential mass shooters, or more likely to be violent. In fact, research indicates that mentally disabled people are far more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators. Mentally disabled people are simply not more likely to be violent.

It is certainly possible that some particular mass killings could have been be prevented if someone at the right moment had taken a little more interest in what’s going on with a particular angry, confused, and possibly mentally ill person. But that requires an individual approach, and a lot of luck, not major policy changes that affect the entire mental disability community.

Issue 2: Blaming mental disability for massacres like Orlando increases the stigma of mental disability.

Unfortunately, this upside-down logic of causes and probabilities is extremely common. We see it in the Islamophobic response to many of the very same incidents. We hear a lot about terrorism committed by Muslims. Therefore, Muslims are all be potential terrorists. Of course, the key thing here is that this fallacy is supported by pre-existing prejudices about the groups in question. People aren’t afraid of mentally disabled people only because of actual shootings they’ve seen and heard about, but also because of the fear, prejudice, and social stigma that have hung around mental illness for centuries.

This kind of thinking misleads us, and also makes mental disability stigma worse, a lot worse. This, in turn, makes it harder for mentally disabled people to stay in school, get jobs, rent apartments, even maintain lasting friendships and relationships. It further poisons lives that are already poisoned by prejudice. Like other forms of ableism, stigma against mental disability is often more debilitating than mental disability itself. We need less of it, not more.

Issue 3: Attributing mass violence to mental illness can lead to policy changes that restrict the basic human rights of mentally ill people.

When politicians cite mental disability as some sort of “cause” of terrible crimes, they usually have policy changes in mind that would erode the freedom of mentally disabled people. These can include restrictions on buying guns … which frankly, doesn’t bother me much, because I think guns should be harder for everyone to get. However, it’s a very small step from there to much drastic restrictions on personal choice and basic freedom.

Let’s make sure they take the medications, regardless of what they want or how bad the side effects are. Let employers know who’s had mental problems, so they don’t unknowingly hire a volatile person or potential murderer. Maybe we should make it easier to keep mentally disabled people locked up, where we can look after them and they can’t hurt anyone.

Let’s not kid ourselves. None of these ideas are motivated by a genuine desire for better mental health care. It is always, at bottom, about legally micro-managing an entire group people because we are irrationally afraid of them. There is a word for that.

LOL  You should try more than cut and pasting.

This didn't in the least disprove what I stated.  Not one iota.

You really should read this.

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5 minutes ago, Orange said:

"thoughts and prayers.... AND mental health"

Thoughts and prayers after ANY mass shooting that makes the national news.  Add "mental health" if it's an angry white male that posts a manifesto that can in any way embarrass a president due to his previous rhetoric and have your favorite network spread the message.  Note, if a Muslim or illegal immigrant commits a horrific crime, "mental health" is definitely NOT the message that will be communicated by said president and network.

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1 minute ago, alum93 said:

Thoughts and prayers after ANY mass shooting that makes the national news.  Add "mental health" if it's an angry white male that posts a manifesto that can in any way embarrass a president due to his previous rhetoric and have your favorite network spread the message.

It mirrors the opioid abuse issue as well.

When crack was ravaging the inner cities in the 1980s, it was all about law and order.

When oxycontin was tearing apart WV and KY mobile homes, it was all about treatment, and going after the pharma CEOs.

you tell me what the difference is in the melanin of the victims...

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8 minutes ago, alum93 said:

Thoughts and prayers after ANY mass shooting that makes the national news.  Add "mental health" if it's an angry white male that posts a manifesto that can in any way embarrass a president due to his previous rhetoric and have your favorite network spread the message.  Note, if a Muslim or illegal immigrant commits a horrific crime, "mental health" is definitely NOT the message that will be communicated by said president and network.

Consistency is very important.

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6 minutes ago, Orange said:

It mirrors the opioid abuse issue as well.

When crack was ravaging the inner cities in the 1980s, it was all about law and order.

When oxycontin was tearing apart WV and KY mobile homes, it was all about treatment, and going after the pharma CEOs.

you tell me what the difference is in the melanin of the victims...

You do need to be more consistent

The World Needs More Cowboys!

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1 hour ago, Orange said:

First, shut the +++++ up.  Republicans have ZERO interest in addressing mental health, it's just the deflection you guys use to avoid talking about guns.  Then when the rubber hits the road, Trump vetoes any mental health legislation. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-signs-bill-revoking-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-n727221

Second, mentally ill people seem ONLY, in your world, to be white.  When's the last time someone reacted to an ISIS-inspired shooting or a gang shooting with "those people need better mental health care!"?

Never.  It's literally NEVER happened.

 

1 hour ago, mysfit said:

In terms of these mass casualty attacks, mental health is a dog whistle.

 

Hatred is not a mental illness. It's not the problem. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Orange said:

Precisely.  None of these shooters will turn out to have had a diagnosed mental illness.  I guarantee it.

So what role does mental illness play in these mass killings? Multiple studies done between 2000 and 2015 suggest that about a third of mass killers have an untreated severe mental illness. If mental illness is defined more broadly, the percentage is higher. In 2018 the Federal Bureau of Investigation released a report titled “A Study of the Pre-Attack Behavior of Active Shooters in the United States Between 2008 and 2013.” It reported that 40% of the shooters had received a psychiatric diagnosis, and 70% had “mental health stressors” or “mental health concerning behaviors” before the attack.

 

Most recently, in July 2019, the U.S. Secret Service released its report “Mass Attacks in Public Spaces—2018.” The report covered 27 attacks that resulted in 91 deaths and 107 injuries. The investigators found that 67% of the suspects displayed symptoms of mental illness or emotional disturbance. In 93% of the incidents, the authorities found that the suspects had a history of threats or other troubling communications. The results were similar to those of another study published by the Secret Service on 28 such attacks in 2017.

It thus seems clear that untreated mental illness is playing a significant role in the rising incidence of mass killings. 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/mental-illness-and-mass-murder-11564955203

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The Mayo clinic lists depression as a mental illness.  Showing symptoms includes feeling sad or having excess fear.

How many regular Americans wouldn't qualify for this right now?  I want mental health to be reinvested in, but this blanket statement that mental illness is the sole reason these assholes are targeting strangers is the cheap route to rationalize this.  

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3 minutes ago, Rebelbacker said:

 

 

So what role does mental illness play in these mass killings? Multiple studies done between 2000 and 2015 suggest that about a third of mass killers have an untreated severe mental illness. If mental illness is defined more broadly, the percentage is higher. In 2018 the Federal Bureau of Investigation released a report titled “A Study of the Pre-Attack Behavior of Active Shooters in the United States Between 2008 and 2013.” It reported that 40% of the shooters had received a psychiatric diagnosis, and 70% had “mental health stressors” or “mental health concerning behaviors” before the attack.

 

Most recently, in July 2019, the U.S. Secret Service released its report “Mass Attacks in Public Spaces—2018.” The report covered 27 attacks that resulted in 91 deaths and 107 injuries. The investigators found that 67% of the suspects displayed symptoms of mental illness or emotional disturbance. In 93% of the incidents, the authorities found that the suspects had a history of threats or other troubling communications. The results were similar to those of another study published by the Secret Service on 28 such attacks in 2017.

It thus seems clear that untreated mental illness is playing a significant role in the rising incidence of mass killings. 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/mental-illness-and-mass-murder-11564955203

Mysfits and Oranges (and a few other's) argument against mental illness being a factor is to argue that anger =/= mental illness, which isn't what anyone is saying.  Anger is anger and mental illness is mental illness.  Combining mental health issues, such as depression, with anger is perhaps the most dangerous combination leading to unhealthy behaviors such as suicide, mass shootings, etc.

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Just now, East Coast Aztec said:

The Mayo clinic lists depression as a mental illness.  Showing symptoms includes feeling sad or having excess fear.

How many regular Americans wouldn't qualify for this right now?  I want mental health to be reinvested in, but this blanket statement that mentally illness is the sole reason these assholes are targeting strangers is the cheap route to rationalize this.  

Depression is a most significant mental illness that impacts millions of Americans.

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