Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

youngredbullfan

Trump: Democratic Congresswomen should go back where they came from

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, SJSUMFA2013 said:

 

If they still support him after his “go back to Africa” comments then yeah. Historically, racially oppressive systems need help from members of the out-group.

They do, but it’s a bit problematic to paint “collaborators” as “racist” when they themselves are coping (albeit not constructively) and reacting to larger systemic pressures that affect them as well.

The tendency for black Trump voters to see themselves in competition with Latinos, and for Latino Trump voters to view themselves as white and as a part of the in-group, for instance, are both products of the pressure of systems that reward whiteness. 

On 12/1/2016 at 12:26 PM, WyomingCoog said:

I own a vehicle likely worth more than everything you own combined and just flew first class (including a ticket for a 2 1/2 year old), round trip to Las Vegas and I'm not 35 yet. When you accomplish something outside of finishing a book, let me know. When's the last time you saw a 2 year old fly first class in their own seat? Don't tell me about elite.  

28 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

I’d happily compare IQ’s with you any day of the week.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, youngrebelfan40 said:

rrThat’s actually an interesting question. Of course, it depends on how expansively you define racism, but they’re at least racism-adjacent like every Trump voter, intentionally or not. 

 

Honest academic question for you, good Sir.  By the definition of racism, as I understand it in part thanks to you clear, thought provoking posts, no they are not racist but many do seem "racisim adjacent".  My question to you is what roll does intent play?  If you honestly mean no ill will for somebody of a different race and think what you are voting for is ultimately in their best interest, when that is not the case are you racism-adjacent?  What if you feel Trump is racist, due to , you know, the obvious appearance of his racism but believe his policies are in the ultimate best interest of minorities?

Thank you for your time, as always.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Honest academic question for you, good Sir.  By the definition of racism, as I understand it in part thanks to you clear, thought provoking posts, no they are not racist but many do seem "racisim adjacent".  My question to you is what roll does intent play?  If you honestly mean no ill will for somebody of a different race and think what you are voting for is ultimately in their best interest, when that is not the case are you racism-adjacent?  What if you feel Trump is racist, due to , you know, the obvious appearance of his racism but believe his policies are in the ultimate best interest of minorities?

Thank you for your time, as always.

Ah, that’s a great question. And one that touches on morality a bit.

I’ll start with the existence of “unintentional/ignorant” racism, speaking to your question about the role of intent. If say, you really just don’t know or understand that non-white people are systematically disadvantaged and make voting decisions, blind to that fact, that serve to further disadvantage or keep minorities at an unequal status quo, are you a racist?  Many race scholars believe that “unawareness” of racist systems is willful to a degree, and thus those people are culpable. 

I’d argue, on the other hand, that on an individual level, white people who honestly mean no direct ill will who vote against the interests of racial justice are much less culpable than conscious racists. We have to remember that systems as pervasive as white supremacy afford the luxury of ignorance to many white people, as they live their daily lives  and view life, like many of us, from their small personal perspective. Unlike black folks, who almost always learn from an early age how society values them and how to act accordingly, white people don’t need to know how to survive in a system built for their advantage at almost every turn. They can afford to be “colorblind.”  Because systematic disadvantage is completely abstract and so completely foreign to their own personal experience, why on earth SHOULD we expect the average white person to be (get ready to cringe), woke? Their ancestors did all of the conscious legwork by building racist systems, and now many of their descendants hardly need to worry about it. 

At the same time, racism isn’t just some abstract system that works by itself. This is because there are active forces working AGAINST it: resistance. The demanding of civil and economic rights by the disadvantaged and the use of democracy to achieve them is a direct threat to racism. Thus, the maintaining of racism requires performance, and action by white (and in fewer cases, non-white) actors to oppose that resistance. On a larger scale, the apathy and ignorance of white people is not only a crucial, but a necessary component to action against racism. If average Middle America Joe really cared about racial issues and understood white supremacy even generally, it would probably be a hell of a lot harder for racists to resist movements like reparations and affirmative action. But on an individual scale, can you really fault the average white person who is insular and doesn’t have to be concerned, and thus is not? Truly, it’s up for debate. 

I guess the TLDR for this, in my opinion,  is that ignorant/unaware white people collectively are indeed culpable for racism, but often on an individual level are much less so than active racists due to the trappings of ignorance that white supremacy affords them. 

I hope that kind of answers your first two queries. 

Now this one: 

What if you feel Trump is racist, due to , you know, the obvious appearance of his racism but believe his policies are in the ultimate best interest of minorities?” 

is another very good question. To be continued..

On 12/1/2016 at 12:26 PM, WyomingCoog said:

I own a vehicle likely worth more than everything you own combined and just flew first class (including a ticket for a 2 1/2 year old), round trip to Las Vegas and I'm not 35 yet. When you accomplish something outside of finishing a book, let me know. When's the last time you saw a 2 year old fly first class in their own seat? Don't tell me about elite.  

28 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

I’d happily compare IQ’s with you any day of the week.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

 What if you feel Trump is racist, due to , you know, the obvious appearance of his racism but believe his policies are in the ultimate best interest of minorities?

See, now this one is tough.

I think you’d have to define what the “best interests” of minorities are, which really is something only they can do. A majority of people in minority groups believe that eliminating structural racism and replacing it with a system of justice is in their best interest. I tend to agree with them. Also, you should probably listen to minorities themselves before voting for “their best interest” if you’re white, but that’s another topic, lol. 

If you think voting Trump will eliminate racism, you are very likely incorrect. I could hardly imagine someone actually believing this, but if they exist out there somewhere, I’d put them in the ignorant, enabling category of racism. 

Now, a much smaller group of minorities define “best interest” entirely differently than the majority. They tend to believe that a rising tide lifts all boats economically and that pursuing Republican/conservative economic policies and ethics are in their best interest. This is where this discussion gets a little more complex for me. Suffice it to say that a vast majority of black and brown people would argue that they are misguided and ignorant, are pursuing counterproductive and individualized remedies to systematic issues, and are enabling racism. Hence the sometimes inflammatory lobbing of  “collaborator” insults like “token” and “Uncle Tom”. I tend to personally stay away from that stuff, as white people telling black people what’s in their best interest, even if what they are saying is objectively correct, carries certain paternalistic connotations. Many sanctimonious white liberals are guilty of this kind of thing. 

 

 

On 12/1/2016 at 12:26 PM, WyomingCoog said:

I own a vehicle likely worth more than everything you own combined and just flew first class (including a ticket for a 2 1/2 year old), round trip to Las Vegas and I'm not 35 yet. When you accomplish something outside of finishing a book, let me know. When's the last time you saw a 2 year old fly first class in their own seat? Don't tell me about elite.  

28 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

I’d happily compare IQ’s with you any day of the week.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, youngrebelfan40 said:

Ah, that’s a great question. And one that touches on morality a bit.

I’ll start with the existence of “unintentional/ignorant” racism, speaking to your question about the role of intent. If say, you really just don’t know or understand that non-white people are systematically disadvantaged and make voting decisions, blind to that fact, that serve to further disadvantage or keep minorities at an unequal status quo, are you a racist?  Many race scholars believe that “unawareness” of racist systems is willful to a degree, and thus those people are culpable. 

I’d argue, on the other hand, that on an individual level, white people who honestly mean no direct ill will who vote against the interests of racial justice are much less culpable than conscious racists. We have to remember that systems as pervasive as white supremacy afford the luxury of ignorance to many white people, as they live their daily lives  and view life, like many of us, from their small personal perspective. Unlike black folks, who almost always learn from an early age how society values them and how to act accordingly, white people don’t need to know how to survive in a system built for their advantage at almost every turn. They can afford to be “colorblind.”  Because systematic disadvantage is completely abstract and so completely foreign to their own personal experience, why on earth SHOULD we expect the average white person to be (get ready to cringe), woke? Their ancestors did all of the conscious legwork by building racist systems, and now many of their descendants hardly need to worry about it. 

At the same time, racism isn’t just some abstract system that works by itself. This is because there are active forces working AGAINST it: resistance. The demanding of civil and economic rights by the disadvantaged and the use of democracy to achieve it is a direct threat to racism. Thus, the maintaining of racism requires performance, and action by white (and in fewer cases, non-white) actors to oppose that resistance. On a larger scale, the apathy and ignorance of white people is not only crucial, but a necessary component to action against racism. If average Middle America Joe really cared about racial issues and understood white supremacy even generally, it would probably be a hell of a lot harder for racists to resist movements like reparations and affirmative action. But on an individual scale, can you really fault the average white person who is insular and doesn’t have to be concerned, and thus is not? Truly, it’s up for debate. 

I guess the TLDR for this, in my opinion,  is that ignorant/unaware white people collectively are indeed culpable for racism, but often on an individual level are much less so due to the trappings of ignorance that white supremacy affords them. 

I hope that kind of answers your first two queries. 

Now this one: 

What if you feel Trump is racist, due to , you know, the obvious appearance of his racism but believe his policies are in the ultimate best interest of minorities?” 

is another very good question. To be continued..

The time you spent in answering my sincere quarries is very much appreciated, I think pointing this out is imperative to building a better quality of dialogue.  So thank you, sincerely.  

I know many who believe the policies of Trump to be in the ultimate best interest of the majority of minorities, that undocumented immigrants disproportionately harm the minority working class citizens  That feel government programs are "enabling" a class of people to be dependent on a government only caring about their vote.  These views come across to me as more paternalistic than racist.  They do want what is best for minorities and many have spent hours and hours trying in good faith to educate themselves about such topics. People acting in good faith for what they feel is the best interest of the country, backing ideas instead of politicians, not identifying with racial animosity, makr up a part of today's right wing being bashed with the label of "human garbage" or "white trash" every where we look.  Does that help?

As you point out, how can people who learn, grew up in and built an identity in a system created for them understand the real plight of those who are reminded of their blackness every time a white person looks at them?  There is that second when even the least racist liberal or whatever recognizes the difference in appearance.  You recognize it, it is there.  It is an ugly part of the human condition.  Nobody is "colorblind", science has proven that.

You are a great source of education for me, and it is appreciated.  Thank you.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, youngrebelfan40 said:

See, now this one is tough.

I think you’d have to define what the “best interests” of minorities are, which really is something only they can do. A majority of people in minority groups believe that eliminating structural racism and replacing it with a system of justice is in their best interest. I tend to agree with them. Also, you should probably listen to minorities themselves before voting for “their best interest” if you’re white, but that’s another topic, lol. 

If you think voting Trump will eliminate racism, you are very likely incorrect. I could hardly imagine someone actually believing this, but if they exist out there somewhere, I’d put them in the ignorant, enabling category of racism. 

Now, a much smaller group of minorities define “best interest” entirely differently than the majority. They tend to believe that a rising tide lifts all boats economically and that pursuing Republican/conservative economic policies and ethics are in their best interest. This is where this discussion gets a little more complex for me. Suffice it to say that a vast majority of black and brown people would argue that they are misguided and ignorant, are pursuing counterproductive and individualized remedies to systematic issues, and are enabling racism. Hence the sometimes inflammatory lobbing of  “collaborator” insults like “token” and “Uncle Tom”. I tend to personally stay away from that stuff, as white people telling black people what’s in their best interest, even if what they are saying is objectively correct, carries certain paternalistic connotations. Many sanctimonious white liberals are guilty of this kind of thing. 

 

 

Bruh it is like you read my post below as I was typing it.  LOL

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, GoState99755 said:

 

The only winner I’ve seen in the War on Drugs Reagan started, was Colombia.  They were able to divert some of the US aid to infrastructure improvements & expansion.  That made Medellín the city it is today.

==============

The drug problem is just like prostitution.  They’re not supply problems, they’re issues of demand.  If we completely cut-off the flow of drugs from LatinAm, consumption in the US & Canada would be effected one-percent.  Suppliers in Asia, the Caribbean, Africa, Eastern Europe, etc... would simply pick-up the slack.

If the authorities were serious about end these issues, they’d enforcing prostitution statutes on the John’s & establishing Drug Courts nationwide. 

On the other hand, I think the undocumented employment issues would best be handled going after the demand side:  the employers.

Yeah, that is my point.   We would get a lot further by regulating employers more instead of having a violent and militarized border where we jail babies.  But jailing babies and hating brown people is more satisfying for the racists.

The racists just really want an ineffective symbolic line in the sand to make them feel good.   Let's build another failed Maginot line!  While their "enemies" will walk right around it with ease. 

Posted Image
Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Akkula said:

Yeah, that is my point.   We would get a lot further by regulating employers more instead of having a violent and militarized border where we jail babies.  But jailing babies and hating brown people is more satisfying for the racists.

The racists just really want an ineffective symbolic line in the sand to make them feel good.   Let's build another failed Maginot line!  While their "enemies" will walk right around it with ease. 

You're right but both wings refuse to regulate white owned businesses, it's not a popular stance when you're calling for legalized bribes trying to be re electected. We need an ammendment to get money out of politics. Money is the corrupter of Democracy. Even if they did enforce current laws on businesses the penalty would be a slap on the wrist and a don't do it again.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Rocket said:

You're right but both wings refuse to regulate white owned businesses, it's not a popular stance when you're calling for legalized bribes trying to be re electected. We need an ammendment to get money out of politics. Money is the corrupter of Democracy. Even if they did enforce current laws on businesses the penalty would be a slap on the wrist and a don't do it again.

Our trade deals were designed to undercut or workers for the benefit of corporations and the wealthy at the expense of the middle class.   Undocumented immigration is a way to allow the wealthy corporations to cheat by not paying a fair wage so they can undercut workers.   All these things were designed to lower wages and environmental standards.  If people would stop being so racist they could fix the problem instead of scapegoating other victims. 

Posted Image
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Akkula said:

Our trade deals were designed to undercut or workers for the benefit of corporations and the wealthy at the expense of the middle class.   Undocumented immigration is a way to allow the wealthy corporations to cheat by not paying a fair wage so they can undercut workers.   If people would stop being so racist they could fix the problem instead of scapegoating other victims. 

I just want to be clear I'm not laughing at your post. I'm laughing at the idea of Ronald Reagan saying that, because of your avatar. He never would have said that because it was untrue, but rather, because it is true, and him saying that would have required brutal honesty, brutal honesty which is almost-universally, conspicuously absent from presidential administrations, most certainly his.  

Amazing upgrade in that department IMO. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/14/2019 at 11:18 AM, youngrebelfan40 said:

 

 

 

 

Yep, totally not racist

As a president, definitely not the most diplomatic or politically prudent thing to say, but you guys don’t even know what racism is anymore. You’re just as embarrassing as Trump can be. 

Let us analyze: 

Racist: Go back to where you came from. The reason? We don’t want people of your race or skin color here. 

Trump: Go back to where you came from .....if you don’t like it here. The reason? Your consistent BEHAVIOR that makes it perfectly clear that you don’t like this country. 

A racist doesn’t want you around simply because of your skin color/race. Behavior has absolutely nothing to do with it. Trump’s sentiment is completely different. It’s more of a ‘love it or leave it’ statement, and that has always been based on behavior. During the Vietnam protests, it was coined towards very liberal student protesters that actually hated the US because of the war. 

Now let’s say each of the 4 had a twin sister that held different beliefs of the US and were more appreciative of America in general. You know Trump would be the first one to tell them that he’s happy to have them here as American patriots and that their twin sister should be learning a lot from you. 

You guys can’t even differentiate between obnoxious insensitive ranting over real actual racism. Pretty amazing, really. 

 

kat.jpg

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, mysfit said:

There are 2 different Americas.

 

The one America which decries racism, sexism, believes that immigrants are welcome.

 

And then there's the other America, the one Trump is speaking to. The one that agrees with him.

 

The only thing I find surprising is there are still people who fail to grasp this fact. He's not baiting dems, he is saying what he and a large number of Americans believe.  He's too stupid to have any strategy. He's simply speaking to his people.

Wow, two America’s! Nothing in between or different altogether. I think you fail to grasp the simple concept that in reality, life is a lot more complex than black and white classifications. You also need to understand that disliking someone’s behavior is simply that, and dragging race into it just makes you a sad left winger in the year 2019.

kat.jpg

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Nevada Convert said:

As a president, definitely not the most diplomatic or politically prudent thing to say, but you guys don’t even know what racism is anymore. You’re just as embarrassing as Trump can be. 

Let us analyze: 

Racist: Go back to where you came from. The reason? We don’t want people of your race or skin color here. 

Trump: Go back to where you came from .....if you don’t like it here. The reason? Your consistent BEHAVIOR that makes it perfectly clear that you don’t like this country. 

A racist doesn’t want you around simply because of your skin color/race. Behavior has absolutely nothing to do with it. Trump’s sentiment is completely different. It’s more of a ‘love it or leave it’ statement, and that has always been based on behavior. During the Vietnam protests, it was coined towards very liberal student protesters that actually hated the US because of the war. 

Now let’s say each of the 4 had a twin sister that held different beliefs of the US and were more appreciative of America in general. You know Trump would be the first one to tell them that he’s happy to have them here as American patriots and that their twin sister should be learning a lot from you. 

You guys can’t even differentiate between obnoxious insensitive ranting over real actual racism. Pretty amazing, really. 

 

Thanks convert. When I am thinking "is this racism?" You are definitely the authority I turn to. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Nevada Convert said:

Wow, two America’s! Nothing in between or different altogether. I think you fail to grasp the simple concept that in reality, life is a lot more complex than black and white classifications. You also need to understand that disliking someone’s behavior is simply that, and dragging race into it just makes you a sad left winger in the year 2019.

He specifically targeted four women of color, despite there being actual immigrants in Congress who are white, including progressive members in the freshman class.  That's why it's racist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

The time you spent in answering my sincere quarries is very much appreciated, I think pointing this out is imperative to building a better quality of dialogue.  So thank you, sincerely.  

I know many who believe the policies of Trump to be in the ultimate best interest of the majority of minorities, that undocumented immigrants disproportionately harm the minority working class citizens  That feel government programs are "enabling" a class of people to be dependent on a government only caring about their vote.  These views come across to me as more paternalistic than racist.  They do want what is best for minorities and many have spent hours and hours trying in good faith to educate themselves about such topics. People acting in good faith for what they feel is the best interest of the country, backing ideas instead of politicians, not identifying with racial animosity, makr up a part of today's right wing being bashed with the label of "human garbage" or "white trash" every where we look.  Does that help?

As you point out, how can people who learn, grew up in and built an identity in a system created for them understand the real plight of those who are reminded of their blackness every time a white person looks at them?  There is that second when even the least racist liberal or whatever recognizes the difference in appearance.  You recognize it, it is there.  It is an ugly part of the human condition.  Nobody is "colorblind", science has proven that.

You are a great source of education for me, and it is appreciated.  Thank you.

 

I ditto the appreciation @youngrebelfan40

The World Needs More Cowboys!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, SJSUMFA2013 said:

Dude come on stop with this nonsense. If 99% of America believed those things, someone else would be president. 

Don't get hung up on the 99% in my response.  Obviously I pulled that outta my ass.  But my point remains.  I believe a large majority of Americans are good, moral folks.  It's asinine to believe that everyone that votes for Trump is in the "box" mysfit attempts to put them in.

The World Needs More Cowboys!

Link to comment
Share on other sites



  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...