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retrofade

Some wise words from Alexander Hamilton

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This is part of a letter that he sent to George Washington, on August 18th, 1792: Objections and Answers respecting the Administration of the Government. The entire thing is interesting and sheds light on Hamilton's federalist views on the national debt and the powers of the federal government to take on and pay off said debt. I've been reading through his papers over the last couple of weeks to contrast with what I've already read about Jefferson and his anti-federalist views. You can also even see the earliest beginnings of discord between the northern and southern states due to per capita debt holdings. 

Quote

The idea of introducing a monarchy or aristocracy into this Country, by employing the influence and force of a Government continually changing hands, towards it, is one of those visionary things, that none but madmen could meditate and that no wise men will believe.

If it could be done at all, which is utterly incredible, it would require a long series of time, certainly beyond the life of any individual to effect it. Who then would enter into such plot? For what purpose of interest or ambition?

To hope that the people may be cajoled into giving their sanctions to such institutions is still more chimerical. A people so enlightened and so diversified as the people of this Country can surely never be brought to it, but from convulsions and disorders, in consequence of the acts of popular demagogues.

The truth unquestionably is, that the only path to a subversion of the republican system of the Country is, by flattering the prejudices of the people, and exciting their jealousies and apprehensions, to throw affairs into confusion, and bring on civil commotion. Tired at length of anarchy, or want of government, they may take shelter in the arms of monarchy for repose and security.

Those then, who resist a confirmation of public order, are the true Artificers of monarchy—not that this is the intention of the generality of them. Yet it would not be difficult to lay the finger upon some of their party who may justly be suspected. When a man unprincipled in private life desperate in his fortune, bold in his temper, possessed of considerable talents, having the advantage of military habits—despotic in his ordinary demeanour—known to have scoffed in private at the principles of liberty—when such a man is seen to mount the hobby horse of popularity—to join in the cry of danger to liberty—to take every opportunity of embarrassing the General Government & bringing it under suspicion—to flatter and fall in with all the non sense of the zealots of the day—It may justly be suspected that his object is to throw things into confusion that he may “ride the storm and direct the whirlwind.”

It has aptly been observed that Cato was the Tory-Cæsar the whig of his day. The former frequently resisted—the latter always flattered the follies of the people. Yet the former perished with the Republic the latter destroyed it.

I think we're really seeing what I bolded from the passage take place today. I'm not just talking about Trump, I'm talking about populism and playing to people's fears on both ends of the American political spectrum. The Democratic Socialists like Bernie and AOC want you to hate the billionaires, and the alt-right wants you to hate people that are different or who espouse views that you're not comfortable with. Then you have people like Steve Bannon who are stoking the flames on both sides in order to achieve his end goal of populism. There's a reason why so many people that supported Bernie in the 2016 primary that then turned around and voted for Trump due to his similar populist rhetoric. It also is very connected to his previous objection, located just above this one in this particular paper.

Quote

Here again the objectors beg the question. They take it for granted that their constructions of the constitution are right and that the opposite ones are wrong, and with great good nature and candor ascribe the effect of a difference of opinion to a disposition to get rid of the limitations on the Government.

Those who have advocated the constructions which have obtained have met their opponents on the ground of fair argument and they think have refuted them. How shall it be determined which side is right?

There are some things which the General Government has clearly a right to do—there are others which it has clearly no right to meddle with, and there is a good deal of middle ground, about which honest & well disposed men may differ. The most that can be said is that some of this middle ground may have been occupied by the National Legislature; and this surely is no evidence of a disposition to get rid of the limitations in the constitution; nor can it be viewed in that light by men of candor.

The truth is one description of men is disposed to do the essential business of the Nation by a liberal construction of the powers of the Government; another from disaffection would fritter away those powers—a third from an overweening jealousy would do the same thing—a fourth from party & personal opposition are torturing the constitution into objections to every thing they do not like.

We see these two bolded sections every day in our political discourse. The right believes x, and therefore the left is wrong, conversely the left believes y, and therefore the right is wrong. By engaging in this zero sum political gamesmanship we get to the last sentence, through party and personal opinions, the constitution had being turned into everything that both sides rail against.

I've obviously simplified things, but it really does seem to apply right now more than it has in my lifetime. In any event, I thoroughly recommend reading through these papers, as well as the Federalist papers and other papers and letters written contemporaneously during the founding and early days of our country. 

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Do you have a link to where you copied/pasted that? Thanks.

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You'll find anti-immigrant and white nationalist talking points on FOX news. White identity politics is the feature not the bug on FOX news. The Democrats are dangerous, they hate the country, they embrace immigrants. Pandering to old white people who want to see the country go back to a time when minorities and women could be marginalized and exploited is what they promise but can't deliver because it's very unpopular. The changes the left makes for this country is to make it better for everyone. When the left makes laws to change healthcare for example, it's so we don't have the attituded of letting people die on the street instead of treating them as the right does, just because they can't affrord the treatment or meds they needed. The current system is bullshit, even at $1000 a month insurance, the insurance co's are still looking for ways to prevent you from getting the care you need such as copays, deductibles and pre-existing conditions. Anybody who like that deal is cray.

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3 minutes ago, Rocket said:

You'll find anti-immigrant and white nationalist talking points on FOX news. White identity politics is the feature not the bug on FOX news. The Democrats are dangerous, they hate the country, they embrace immigrants. Pandering to old white people who want to see the country go back to a time when minorities and women could be marginalized and exploited is what they promise but can't deliver because it's very unpopular. The changes the left makes for this country is to make it better for everyone. When the left makes laws to change healthcare for example, it's so we don't have the attituded of letting people die on the street instead of treating them as the right does, just because they can't affrord the treatment or meds they needed. The current system is bullshit, even at $1000 a month insurance, the insurance co's are still looking for ways to prevent you from getting the care you need such as copays, deductibles and pre-existing conditions. Anybody who like that deal is cray.

As expected, you proved my point. Right = bad, left = good. Zero sum, no middle ground. 

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3 minutes ago, retrofade said:

As expected, you proved my point. Right = bad, left = good. Zero sum, no middle ground. 

I understand what you're saying but the way I see it, you have to fight for your position first and then meet in the middle. You have to at least try to negotiate before bending down and kissing their ass

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I think the repeal of 'Fairness Doctrine ' in 1987 helped with the lack of real political discourse that's not going on.

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31 minutes ago, Lester_in_reno said:

I think the repeal of 'Fairness Doctrine ' in 1987 helped with the lack of real political discourse that's not going on.

And no party benefited more from this than the Right, with Rush Limbaugh and Fox News essentially brainwashing at least 40% of our electorate with ridiculous bullshit.

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4 hours ago, Rocket said:

I understand what you're saying but the way I see it, you have to fight for your position first and then meet in the middle. You have to at least try to negotiate before bending down and kissing their ass

I just think there's a better way of going about things than just digging your heels in and demonizing the other side without first going through a good faith effort, regardless of whether the other side is willing to do the same. What you've effectively said is just that progressive policies are automatically good, and moderate and Republican policies are automatically bad, and that's a big part of where we've ended up today... political tribalism. 

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4 hours ago, Rocket said:

I understand what you're saying but the way I see it, you have to fight for your position first and then meet in the middle. You have to at least try to negotiate before bending down and kissing their ass

The problem is no one can have an intelligent conversation about an issue with you.  You never acknowledge the faults in your arguments and you are never willing to discuss issues reasonably.

So no one is interested in your ranting. 

 

You have become a nobody, you serve the other side better than you serve your own side, just like AOC.

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Just now, bluerules009 said:

The problem is no one can have an intelligent conversation about an issue with you.  You never acknowledge the faults in your arguments and you are never willing to discuss issues reasonably.

So no one is interested in your ranting.  You have become a nobody, you serve the other side better than you serve your own side just like AOC.

This lack of self-awareness is astonishing.

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12 minutes ago, retrofade said:

I just think there's a better way of going about things than just digging your heels in and demonizing the other side without first going through a good faith effort, regardless of whether the other side is willing to do the same. What you've effectively said is just that progressive policies are automatically good, and moderate and Republican policies are automatically bad, and that's a big part of where we've ended up today... political tribalism. 

I could see this, I guess it would depend on where you think the political spectrum leans. Imho I see it leaning right for about the past 40 years or so. So in that case you will have to dig your heels in and fight to pull things back to the left. Rolling over at this time would accomplish nothing.

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3 minutes ago, Orange said:

This lack of self-awareness is astonishing.

That's how narcissism works.

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9 minutes ago, Orange said:

This lack of self-awareness is astonishing.

The same goes for you.

What is funny is you @retrofade, @Rocket all have the same repeated response to facts and logic.

1) you make a statement.

2) someone disputes all or part of it.

3) you get defensive and insult them, calling them stupid and ignorant or your favorite you call them racist.

4) you blame them for the very same actions you are doing.

 

You do it over and over.  Your Idea of a substantive conversation is that we should all just agree with whatever you post.   Any discussion turns you into a defensive insult machine as you are incapable of defending your thoughts.   Of course most of the thoughts are incapable of being defended.

Your response in the quoted post is just another example.   You didn't try to defend your style of ranting and raving and point to its success, you just went after me.

 

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Just now, bluerules009 said:

The same goes for you.

What is funny is you @retrofade, @Rocket all have the same repeated response to facts and logic.

1) you make a statement.

2) someone disputes all or part of it.

3) you get defensive and insult them, calling them stupid and ignorant or your favorite you call them racist.

4) you blame them for the very same actions you are doing.

 

You do it over and over.  Your Idea of a substantive conversation is that we should all just agree with whatever you post.   Any discussion turns you into a defensive insult machine as you are incapable of defending your thoughts.   Of course most of the thoughts are incapable of being defended.

Your response in the quoted post is just another example.   You didn't try to defend your style of ranting and raving and point to its success, you just went after me.

 

I think putting @retrofade in the same clown car as @Rocket and @Orange is highly unfair. He's probably one of the few true moderates on this board. I find myself agreeing with him about 40% of the time. The other two blithering idiots? 0%.

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Just now, thelawlorfaithful said:

Funny how the downfall of the republic echoes in Hamilton’s time and ours.

Although I didn't like Hamilton's stances on individual rights, he was the smartest of the founders and had the most long term impact on our government of any of them.  Even though he died young and was never a president.

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Just now, sean327 said:

I think putting @retrofade in the same clown car as @Rocket and @Orange is highly unfair. He's probably one of the few true moderates on this board. I find myself agreeing with him about 40% of the time. The other two blithering idiots? 0%.

Retro definitely has his moments (don't we all I guess), but he's not near the level of the other two IMO. he's at least willing to use reason in arguments, and will admit when he's wrong/amiss. 

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2 minutes ago, sean327 said:

I think putting @retrofade in the same clown car as @Rocket and @Orange is highly unfair. He's probably one of the few true moderates on this board. I find myself agreeing with him about 40% of the time. The other two blithering idiots? 0%.

While @retrofade isn't at the same level as the other two and much more moderate.   He has the same response to any criticism of something he posts.

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9 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

Although I didn't like Hamilton's stances on individual rights, he was the smartest of the founders and had the most long term impact on our government of any of them.  Even though he died young and was never a president.

Hamilton is my least liked of the founders but I love him still. He did want to make European colonial monarchy with him as the head, but he would have been among the most benevolent people who ever wanted to do so.

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