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smltwnrckr

Evangelicals and the Trump Presidency

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6 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

I havent once said anything about voting for Democrats or Hillary Clinton. It's trump supporters who keep bringing it up. This stuff seems downright Freudian. Its weird. 

Trump supporters keep bringing it up to remind you of the alternative.  You can pretend that Trump wasn't running against anyone but most of us realize that someone had to win the election.  You're only looking at half the equation.

       

 

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44 minutes ago, SJSUMFA2013 said:

Sure but they don’t use their pretend authority bestowed upon them by god to do so.

Priests abused the trust of their parishioners. And the Catholic Church is rightfully paying the consequences. 

The federal government pays state and local government to abuse children both directly and indirectly. Yet somehow none of the three ever seem to lose business.

I can tell you how to get the church out of your family's life. Can you tell me how to get the government out of mine?

 

 

 

 

ezgif-5-959914ff2250.gif.f0cc4fc558f5a154dc6ff5904c80bf34.gif

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8 hours ago, bsu_alum9 said:

HR 3401.  Introduced by a Democrat. Passed 84-8-8 in the Senate (the 8 non-votes were mostly the democrat primary presidential runners).  And passed 305-102-8 in the House.  And signed by Trump.

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/116-2019/h429

We should all thank Mitch McConnell for allowing it to be put up for a vote, and to a lesser extent of Donald Trump. A good bill, honestly passed. But if using voting for this bill as an example of a positive, oughtn’t we think less, regarding the issue of immigration, of any Presidential candidate that voted against it

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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33 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

We should all thank Mitch McConnell 

In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for. As for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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On 7/10/2019 at 11:38 AM, smltwnrckr said:

Interesting article on the love affair between largely white protestant evangelicals and the Trump presidency. Some good insight as to why it exists despite some seeming incongruities, and also as to the potential longterm effects on American Christianity. It's interesting, though it's worth pointing out that clearly Trump is part of a larger issue here but also a flashpoint that is causing much of the theological problems of the American Evangelical movement to be exposed. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/07/evangelical-christians-face-deepening-crisis/593353/

A few excerpts...

The enthusiastic, uncritical embrace of President Trump by white evangelicals is among the most mind-blowing developments of the Trump era. How can a group that for decades—and especially during the Bill Clinton presidency—insisted that character counts and that personal integrity is an essential component of presidential leadership not only turn a blind eye to the ethical and moral transgressions of Donald Trump, but also constantly defend him? Why are those who have been on the vanguard of “family values” so eager to give a man with a sordid personal and sexual history a mulligan?

Part of the answer is their belief that they are engaged in an existential struggle against a wicked enemy—not Russia, not North Korea, not Iran, but rather American liberals and the left. If you listen to Trump supporters who are evangelical (and non-evangelicals, like the radio talk-show host Mark Levin), you will hear adjectives applied to those on the left that could easily be used to describe a Stalinist regime. (Ask yourself how many evangelicals have publicly criticized Trump for his lavish praise of Kim Jong Un, the leader of perhaps the most savage regime in the world and the worst persecutor of Christians in the world.)

...

There’s a very high cost to our politics for celebrating the Trump style, but what is most personally painful to me as a person of the Christian faith is the cost to the Christian witness. Nonchalantly jettisoning the ethic of Jesus in favor of a political leader who embraces the ethic of Thrasymachus and Nietzsche—might makes right, the strong should rule over the weak, justice has no intrinsic worth, moral values are socially constructed and subjective—is troubling enough. But there is also the undeniable hypocrisy of people who once made moral character, and especially sexual fidelity, central to their political calculus and who are now embracing a man of boundless corruptions.

...

While on the Pacific Coast last week, I had lunch with Karel Coppock, whom I have known for many years and who has played an important role in my Christian pilgrimage. In speaking about the widespread, reflexive evangelical support for the president, Coppock—who is theologically orthodox and generally sympathetic to conservatism—lamented the effect this moral freak show is having, especially on the younger generation. With unusual passion, he told me, “We’re losing an entire generation. They’re just gone. It’s one of the worst things to happen to the Church.”

...

Evangelical Christians need another model for cultural and political engagement, and one of the best I am aware of has been articulated by the artist Makoto Fujimura, who speaks about “culture care” instead of “culture war.” According to Fujimura, “Culture care is an act of generosity to our neighbors and culture. Culture care is to see our world not as a battle zone in which we’re all vying for limited resources, but to see the world of abundant possibilities and promise.” What Fujimura is talking about is a set of sensibilities and dispositions that are fundamentally different from what we see embodied in many white evangelical leaders who frequently speak out on culture and politics. The sensibilities and dispositions Fujimura is describing are characterized by a commitment to grace, beauty, and creativity, not antipathy, disdain, and pulsating anger. It’s the difference between an open hand and a mailed fist.

Building on this theme, Mark Labberton, a colleague of Fujimura’s and the president of Fuller Theological Seminary, the largest multidenominational seminary in the world, has spoken about a distinct way for Christians to conceive of their calling, from seeing themselves as living in a Promised Land and “demanding it back” to living a “faithful, exilic life.”

Labberton speaks about what it means to live as people in exile, trying to find the capacity to love in unexpected ways; to see the enemy, the foreigner, the stranger, and the alien, and to go toward rather than away from them. He asks what a life of faithfulness looks like while one lives in a world of fear.

game of thrones shame GIF

I'm getting tons of mileage out of this gif during this presidency

 

 

 

 

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48 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for. As for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican.

That’s all well and good. But we should also rejoice that there is some help coming from the federal government that necessarily must enforce those laws that they are assigned. It’s a good thing when we send funds to a crisis, especially one we’ve created by our previous reluctance to address the problem and sending the message of how we will enforce in the future.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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12 hours ago, smltwnrckr said:

I'm not sure our founding fathers should be the first place we go when discussing who should vote and why they should vote. Just sayin'

Come to think of it, I can’t think of any accurate or sane statement on anything you’ve said lately. I normally don’t pay attention to you, but when I do, you’re pretty much wrong all the time. Your takes on things can be so bizarre. 

kat.jpg

 

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12 hours ago, pokebball said:

Yep

Are you in favor of the US adopting a policy of compulsory voting.

Are you like 8 years old and haven’t gotten to your civics course yet? Holy shit. Why does it have to be me to break the news to you that your assumptions of how civics work is wrong. 

First of all, it’s your civic duty to become knowledgeable about all the issues on a ballot, and it’s also your civic duty to vote once you’ve learned the issues. Compulsory voting is stupid because if you’re forcing people to vote that don’t want to spend the time and hassle of doing so, they’re obviously not going to spend any time on their own learning about the issues they’ll be voting on. And that’s even more 

Just like in Vietnam, the draft forced kids over there to fight when they didn’t want to be there.  But that didn’t mean that they could get the kids to fight hard or work hard to become good soldiers once they got there. 

kat.jpg

 

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11 hours ago, woo pig sooie said:

Priests abused the trust of their parishioners. And the Catholic Church is rightfully paying the consequences. 

The federal government pays state and local government to abuse children both directly and indirectly. Yet somehow none of the three ever seem to lose business.

I can tell you how to get the church out of your family's life. Can you tell me how to get the government out of mine?

I was feeling a bit down this morning, and then I read your post and it got me thinking more positive and uplifted my spirits! Thanks.

kat.jpg

 

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3 hours ago, Nevada Convert said:

We’re talking about the presidency, and I specifically said ‘voting for president’. I don’t know why you’re playing games with this. It’s a very simple concept. 

Your responses have misrepresented things, at least that's how I've interpreted them.  I think it's important to be clear, that's all.  Don't go all drama on this.

The World Needs More Cowboys!

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3 hours ago, Nevada Convert said:

Are you like 8 years old and haven’t gotten to your civics course yet? Holy shit. Why does it have to be me to break the news to you that your assumptions of how civics work is wrong. 

First of all, it’s your civic duty to become knowledgeable about all the issues on a ballot, and it’s also your civic duty to vote once you’ve learned the issues. Compulsory voting is stupid because if you’re forcing people to vote that don’t want to spend the time and hassle of doing so, they’re obviously not going to spend any time on their own learning about the issues they’ll be voting on. And that’s even more 

Just like in Vietnam, the draft forced kids over there to fight when they didn’t want to be there.  But that didn’t mean that they could get the kids to fight hard or work hard to become good soldiers once they got there. 

You know when you start name calling, getting personal and degrading it's a sign to most of us that you've lost your argument?

I embraced my civic duty and become knowledgeable about all the issues on the ballot and voted accordingly.  I've done this for over 40 years.  My conclusion this past 2016 is that neither of our POTUS candidates earned my vote.  That is the definition of civic duty.

The World Needs More Cowboys!

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14 hours ago, easybronc said:

Trump supporters keep bringing it up to remind you of the alternative.  You can pretend that Trump wasn't running against anyone but most of us realize that someone had to win the election.  You're only looking at half the equation.

Except the article in the OP and the argument being levied has nothing to do with Hilary Clinton. The fact that Trump supporters continue to bandy about her name as the reason for ongoing, wholehearted support for the Trumpification of the Evangelical movement is telling. Makes it clear that, deep down, even they have a little shame maybe.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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39 minutes ago, pokebball said:

You know when you start name calling, getting personal and degrading it's a sign to most of us that you've lost your argument?

I embraced my civic duty and become knowledgeable about all the issues on the ballot and voted accordingly.  I've done this for over 40 years.  My conclusion this past 2016 is that neither of our POTUS candidates earned my vote.  That is the definition of civic duty.

Dude, when I said religion was awful to women, you called me a "simpleton".  Stop with your holier-than-thou horseshit.  You're no better.

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4 hours ago, Nevada Convert said:

Come to think of it, I can’t think of any accurate or sane statement on anything you’ve said lately. I normally don’t pay attention to you, but when I do, you’re pretty much wrong all the time. Your takes on things can be so bizarre. 

That means a lot coming from you. One of the nice things on this board since Trump got elected is that I don't have to cringe as much when I get a thumbs up from you on one of my many negative post about the Obama admin. As much as I appreciate an "Atta-boy!" it's a little less enjoyable when it comes from a dunderhead. 

But to the point, even the most conservative among us would find a return to the framework for voting (who votes, and what they vote for, re: federal elections) in the original constitution to be absurd. It would be a national scandal if someone called for that. It's even funnier that you draw on the Founding Father's wisdom for voting as our civic duty in an argument with @pokebball who literally stated that he voted for others on the ballot but couldn't bring himself to vote for the president. If anything, his approach literally is a reflection of the original wisdom of the founding fathers. 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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10 minutes ago, Orange said:

Dude, when I said religion was awful to women, you called me a "simpleton".  Stop with your holier-than-thou horseshit.  You're no better.

Can't disagree with anything in this response.

The World Needs More Cowboys!

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15 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

Except the article in the OP and the argument being levied has nothing to do with Hilary Clinton. The fact that Trump supporters continue to bandy about her name as the reason for ongoing, wholehearted support for the Trumpification of the Evangelical movement is telling. Makes it clear that, deep down, even they have a little shame maybe.

I find nothing wrong with Clinton being part of the current conversation.  She remains in the dynamic.  Suggesting she isn't in the current dynamic isn't intellectually honest.

The World Needs More Cowboys!

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7 hours ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

That’s all well and good. But we should also rejoice that there is some help coming from the federal government that necessarily must enforce those laws that they are assigned. It’s a good thing when we send funds to a crisis, especially one we’ve created by our previous reluctance to address the problem and sending the message of how we will enforce in the future.

I mean, the quote I posted was partially in jest and a general response to the idea of thanking a politician as if they did anything for the good of anyone other than themselves.

But it is worth pointing out... Mitch McConnell specifically is known for being a master political tactician, and applying that skill to one thing and one thing only - securing and expanding the power of the Republican Party and, by association, his own power. The extent to which that end overlaps with the goals of conservatives, liberals, migrant families or basketball fans is entirely incidental. That is a pretty universal argument made about him, by his biggest fans, on this board and elsewhere. I get that real conservatives, those who actually care about things that conservatives seemed to care about before 2016, have a hard on for the dude right now because he seems like a beacon of hope in a vast, dark ideological wilderness. That's all well and good. But you'll have to excuse the people who don't rejoice and thank the dude as if he's our heavenly father when he does something that lands in the middle of that big Venn Diagram of interests.

I'd say the same thing about Nanci Pelosi. In fact, I don't blame Trump fans for feeling the same way about her right now re: impeachment.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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2 minutes ago, pokebball said:

I find nothing wrong with Clinton being part of the current conversation.  She remains in the dynamic.  Suggesting she isn't in the current dynamic isn't intellectually honest.

You misspelled "oval office", and mis-identified its current occupant.

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