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smltwnrckr

Evangelicals and the Trump Presidency

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30 minutes ago, SleepingGiantsFan said:

Name them.

 

26 minutes ago, happycamper said:

The homosexual agenda, prayer in school, not teaching evolution, easy homeschool accreditation, less taxes so the wealth gospel is even more powerful, winning the "Culture war"

He named 2 already - guns and immigration. The stuff that the evangelicals seemed to care about before (family values, gays, satanism,.prayer in school, think of the children) are not really major parts of Trump's GOP. It's almost as if the whole thing isn't about faith at all.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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1 hour ago, pokebball said:

I don't want to diminish the importance of our election process and its impact on our governance.  I wasn't sure how I'd feel after skipping the POTUS election.  I felt extremely conflicted the week or two, heading up to my opportunity to vote.  The day after skipping the POTUS vote, I actually felt extremely liberated.  Totally personal liberation knowing I didn't compromise my values by casting a vote for either Trump or Clinton.  Having experienced that conflict of personal values vs. my obligation to vote, I'd do it again.

All that you just stated was 100% about you, you, you, you and how it made you feel better. As responsible citizens in a democracy, it’s our duty to vote, and the vast majority of the time, voting consists of choosing the better of the two for prez. 

You can do all you want to make yourself feel better in your little bubble of reality. But that doesn’t change the fact that, in reality, by not voting you’re neglecting your duty as an up-standing citizen in support of our system of democracy that’s the foundation of our United States of America. 

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6 minutes ago, Nevada Convert said:

All that you just stated was 100% about you, you, you, you and how it made you feel better. As responsible citizens in a democracy, it’s our duty to vote, and the vast majority of the time, voting consists of choosing the better of the two for prez. 

You can do all you want to make yourself feel better in your little bubble of reality. But that doesn’t change the fact that, in reality, by not voting you’re neglecting your duty as an up-standing citizen in support of our system of democracy that’s the foundation of our United States of America. 

Absolutely not about me, but rather placing an immoral, low character asshole leading my country.  Do you ever have any sort of regret for  supporting Trump? 

Why didn't you vote for Clinton?  Isn't that decision "100% about you, you, you, you and how it made you feel better"?

What do you mean when you say my little bubble of reality?  Do you mean my freedoms and opinions?  Don't we all have this bubble?

I voted in the last election, for everything but POTUS so I didn't neglect my duty as an upstanding citizen.  That right is to vote for who I want to as well as who I don't want to.  I thoughtfully engaged my right, my freedom and my duty.  Did you just blindly vote down the party line?

The World Needs More Cowboys!

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24 minutes ago, pokebball said:

I like your suggestions.  Where's the money to do this come from?

We could buy one less F35 next order. Or we can do what we always do when we need something and just buy it since apparently the debt and deficits don't mean a damn thing anymore.

 

People, not a fan.

 

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1 minute ago, azgreg said:

We could buy one less F35 next order. Or we can do what we always do when we need something and just buy it since apparently the debt and deficits don't mean a damn thing anymore.

 

They only matter when we have a Democrat president.  Then the sky is falling.  

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24 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

 

He named 2 already - guns and immigration. The stuff that the evangelicals seemed to care about before (family values, gays, satanism,.prayer in school, think of the children) are not really major parts of Trump's GOP. It's almost as if the whole thing isn't about faith at all.

Here’s a news flash: Evangelicals don’t just vote on 1 or 2 of right wing social issues. They vote on many, and what makes Trump different is they know he’ll attack each one of these issues aggressively which makes him more desirable than a typical good GOP candidate that often flakes when the going gets tough. 

kat.jpg

 

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5 minutes ago, azgreg said:

We could buy one less F35 next order. Or we can do what we always do when we need something and just buy it since apparently the debt and deficits don't mean a damn thing anymore.

 

Give your rep a call.

I can't do this for you.  It's above my pay grade! :) 

The World Needs More Cowboys!

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27 minutes ago, pokebball said:

Absolutely not about me, but rather placing an immoral, low character asshole leading my country.  Do you ever have any sort of regret for actually supporting Trump? 

Why didn't you vote for Clinton?  Isn't that decision "100% about you, you, you, you and how it made you feel better"?

I made a decision based on a candidate that most closely represents how I feel the country should be run and therefore what’s best for the country. The process should be about YOU and choosing what you think is best for the COUNTRY through voting.  You left out the ‘country’ part by choosing not to be involved. Making a choice not to be involved isn’t a valid choice if you support a democracy per the founding fathers.

If I had a choice between a true socialist/communist and Bernie Sanders, I’d have to plug my nose and vote for Sanders even though he’s pretty far out there with the other candidate, but still not as bad.  If I protested the two choices by not voting, there might be a chance the commie actually might win. 

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2 minutes ago, Nevada Convert said:

I made a decision based on a candidate that most closely represents how I feel the country should be run and therefore what’s best for the country. The process should be about YOU and choosing what you think is best for the COUNTRY through voting.  You left out the ‘country’ part by choosing not to be involved. 

If I had a choice between a true socialist/communist and Bernie Sanders, I’d have to plug my nose and vote for Sanders even though he’s pretty far out there with the other candidate. If I protested the two choices by not voting, there might be a chance the commie actually might win. 

There is always a better candidate in your mind.  There isn't in mine.  I don't think either of us are wrong.  We are both granted the freedom to decide for ourselves what is best for the country.  You chose Trump, I chose neither.

The World Needs More Cowboys!

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1 hour ago, pokebball said:

I would argue that the US does more humanitarian work than does any other country in the world.  The evangelical Christians are every bit a part of that than you or I.  Additionally, the Evangelical Churches in my area are sending groups to Haiti and other poor countries all the time, doing humanitarian work such as building water purification systems in villages, etc.

These problems at our border isn't a Christian problem, directly.  It is a State problem and while I don't want to put words in the mouths of our Evengelical Churches mouths, problems that have existed under both political parties.  Trying to ostracize the Evangelical Churches for their member's support of Trump instead of Clinton is a canard, quite frankly.

Just to clarify, this isn't about voting for Trump over Clinton. I don't think anyone expected white American evangelicals to vote for Clinton. It's about a kind of, dare I say, evangelical zeal that drives their support for Trump. These are not the people who plug their noses and go along for the judges and the EPA and the Dept. of Education. These are the people who, as Convert is so clearly stating, love so much that he fights for them. He owns the libs. The problem is, what exactly is he fighting for? What does it mean to own the libs? In what way are those things carrying out a Christian vision for American governance? Because that's what is supposed to be the evangelicals' reason for engaging in politics. 

I don't doubt that the evangelicals do great humanitarian work around the world. In fact, as a younger man, I was engaged in some of that work on several occasions. It was great work, and easily more effective work than much of the humanitarian work attempted and/or carried out by the government (both US, and the government of the countries we were in). And we even managed to do it while Clinton was in office! But that's kind of the point, isn't it? Churches tend to do their best work, their most important and effective work - work that is guided by grace, generosity, humility, empathy and forgiveness - when they do it outside of the realm of government power. Not extra-judicially, necessarily, but as private charities acting entirely on their values. Anyone who thinks that the Evangelicals are supporting Trump because he is doing that kind of work, or he is making it easier for them to do that kind of work, is misguided or lying, IMO. Maybe I had a little more faith in American protestants and the idea that they were in the past ultimately misguided but driven by sincere values. But I think a lot of people are a little surprised at the ease at which they have been wiling to set those values aside or at least place them in the back seat in favor of what they see as political victories. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Power corrupts. That's what it does.

This is where I see this as a genuine problem, and not just a case of needlessly going after the evangelicals. I agree very much with the refrains that I have seen over and over on this thread that the church, individual churches and individuals from churches do a significant amount of good in this world, in their communities and in peoples lives. Religious organizations and institutions are uniquely positioned to do good things that the government simply cannot do for various reasons. Religion is supposed to be singularly good, singularly transformative in ways that government institutions are not. Religious people on this board say that all the time. But one thing it appears this episode is showing us is that democratic politics and running the state in a liberal democracy can require certain moral and ethical compromises that ultimately undermine the evangelical mission. It is not possible to carry out that mission from the seat of power in those cases... and in large measure the movement is choosing the seat of power over that mission in ways that are clearer than ever before. I think it's unfortunate.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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28 minutes ago, Nevada Convert said:

Here’s a news flash: Evangelicals don’t just vote on 1 or 2 of right wing social issues. They vote on many, and what makes Trump different is they know he’ll attack each one of these issues aggressively which makes him more desirable than a typical good GOP candidate that often flakes when the going gets tough. 

And yet when you named three issues that were central, you named abortion, guns and immigration. It was telling.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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7 minutes ago, pokebball said:

There is always a better candidate in your mind.  There isn't in mine.  I don't think either of us are wrong.  We are both granted the freedom to decide for ourselves what is best for the country.  You chose Trump, I chose neither.

Making a choice not to be involved in an election isn’t a valid choice if you support our democracy per our founding fathers. The FF’s gave us the manual to follow to keep our system of democracy going. The FF’s made the rules, not me. 

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2 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

And yet when you named three issues that were central, you named abortion, guns and immigration. It was telling.

But I believe he meant these were three current event issues important to him. Not the three most central issues to his character.  Right?

The World Needs More Cowboys!

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7 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

And yet when you named three issues that were central, you named abortion, guns and immigration. It was telling.

You are so lost. Where I did list just 3 issues?

Telling about what? That evangelicals are into issues that evangelicals are into? 🤪🤪🤪😂😂 

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3 hours ago, alum93 said:

Only the good governments right?  Clearly we can name governments, and individuals who lead them at different times (and i won't mention his name), that we wouldn't want to "obey"....

I am just posting that to make fun of you using bible quotes to justify anything.

You can find a bible quote to backup about anything you want to do.   Using it as an argument is moronic.  

 

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7 minutes ago, Nevada Convert said:

Making a choice not to be involved in an election isn’t a valid choice if you support our democracy per our founding fathers. 

Oh, I was involved.  I was deeply involved.  I chose to be involved.

I spoke to all three of my US reps about how very important it was for them and both houses to compensate for Trumps lack of character.

The World Needs More Cowboys!

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1 minute ago, pokebball said:

But I believe he meant these were three current event issues important to him. Not the three most central issues to his character.  Right?

I believe it was in the context of issues that evangelicals supported Trump for. I would argue that the issues that most reflect Trump's character or personal beliefs are restricting trade, restricting immigration, fighting the deep state and owning the libs. The discussion was over Trump's immoral character and his un-Christian policies vs his pursuit of issues that are most important to evangelicals, those seemingly being in this case guns, abortion and immigration.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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3 hours ago, bsu_alum9 said:

Most of them support helping out Central American countries so we don't people seeking asylum.  Stop Trump's Mexican tariffs that will hurt Mexico's economy more than ours.  And giving citizenship for DREAMers.

For the actual border crossers, many are seeking asylum, which is a lengthy legal issue to determine if justified.  Democrats are all in support of sending something like 2000 more attorneys to these places to more quickly process the cases.  In my opinion, GPS monitoring could be a much cheaper option for people that have a place to go in addition to the holding cells for people that don't. 

Democrats aren't in support of doing that or they would pass the legislation.  Trump has asked for more money to process them over and over.

Democrats have no interest in fixing the situation, they have the moron crowd all upset if the situation gets fixed the democrats might lose votes.  So no chance they pass legislation that will fix this.

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