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smltwnrckr

Evangelicals and the Trump Presidency

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32 minutes ago, easybronc said:

I don't believe that Hillary is seen as morally superior to Trump.  She was the female half of Bill Clinton who evangelicals hated, career politician and corrupt to the core.  Evangelicals couldn't wait to vote against her and I think the turnout had as much to do with hating her as it had to do with liking Trump.  Another Clinton in the white house?  Oh hell no.

Every voting group is drawn to charismatic candidates.  Its not unique to evangelicals.

Hating Hillary certainly was great motivation for a lot of conservatives, but with independent voters and women, their perception was that Hill was a better all around person. The woman vote nearly killed Trump and it’s still a problem.

If it were mostly about being motivated to vote for Trump because of hate for Hillary, Trump wouldn’t have a 90% to 93% approval rating with Republican’s. It had to be more than just hate for Hill.

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3 hours ago, #1Stunner said:

I'll agree to disagree.

But I think I have a strong point if you look at the Macro level.

And focusing on the isolated incidents of religious people being bad (like the Priest abuser) is not really an accurate summary of what religion does (not every single religious person is an abuser---far from it). 

By and large it is an institution which helps to make the testosterone-fueled men behave more.   

Sorry Stunner, but when I think of the past polygamous history of the LSD church, it seems more as though they embraced, codified, and endorsed man's "testosterone-fueled" behavior.

They didn't do this for the women.

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6 hours ago, soupslam1 said:

Consider the alternative to evangelicals, that being the secular left. They are just supporting the lesser of two evils as most of us who voted for Trump have. 

Or as most of us who voted for Hillary did. They were two turds swimming around in a toilet bowl and it's a cryin' shame we couldn't have flushed them both.

Boom goes the dynamite.

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4 hours ago, Nevada Convert said:

I don’t know what world you live in, but in the real world there are two choices for president. Everything else is equivalent to not voting. You can say ‘well if everyone voted third party there would be a better choice’. That’s dreamland and won’t happen. And in the evangelicals point of view, a third party policy likely isn’t going be better than the GOP platform. Choosing the lesser of two evils has always been standard procedure in politics and even the norm for areas like foreign policy. If you don’t pick the lesser, the greater evil wins.

There were 5 people on the ballot last election.

Any of them could have won.

Just because you voted for Trump and he won doesn't mean you're a winner.  You're a loser just like everyone else because you haven't the sense god gave a tadpole. 

You aided and abetted the election of an imbecile with no morals, there is no justification for that.  It can't be rationalized.

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2 hours ago, renoskier said:

Sorry Stunner, but when I think of the past polygamous history of the LSD church, it seems more as though they embraced, codified, and endorsed man's "testosterone-fueled" behavior.

They didn't do this for the women.

c'mon.

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3 minutes ago, AndroidAggie said:

c'mon.

To be fair, if it were the LSD Church, I'd be a Temple Recommended, card-carrying member. 

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Just now, AndroidAggie said:

it'd certainly make a lot of stuff more interesting.

No kidding. Who knows here it would end up. 

I think a sort of LSD-soaked version of the LDS church could be a pretty fascinating experience. 

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5 hours ago, Nevada Convert said:

Dude, in 2016 they were faced with the reality that they were going to have to compromise their values voting for either candidate. They couldn’t avoid it. So the question becomes: Which one would be worse than the other? 

There really wasn’t a classy candidate with a lot of character between Trump and Hill. But obviously, if they voted for Hillary, the Supreme Court would’ve become solid left for decades destroying their chances to over turn R vs W, the 2nd amendment would be in jeopardy, there would essentially be an open border bringing in 2-3 million immigrants per year that would eventually vote Dem, and that would be enough to make some once  red GOP states into blue, thus making it extremely hard for a Republican to ever win the presidency ever again. 

Now THAT would easily be the biggest betrayal of their Christian values impacting a span of approximately 40 years and longer......even the future of the country forever. Comparing that to compromising their values on Trump’s character of past deeds, his immature whining tweets, etc. That is such small potatoes compared to the future of the country being on the line, and it’s really silly to even debate about it. 

Guy, the whole point of this discussion isn't about who they voted for in the 2016 election. It's about a particular level of adulation given by a group of people before and since then to a guy who is the personification of everything the group purports to stand against. We're not talking about binary choices here, so stop offering rationales for things people aren't confused about. No one thought evangelicals would vote for Hilary in 2016 because Trump was is a skeeze. 

Although, your explanation of the issues that matter most says a lot. Of the three issues, one (abortion) is arguably an issue that relates to faith. Though that is arguable, as American protestantism only took up the cause very recently for various historical reasons. Abortion has only been an important political faith for evangelicals for a short while. The other two (guns and immigration) are in no way associated with faith, Christianity, protestant religious liberties, etc. They're just run-of-the-mill secular culture war issues. It's almost as if the Evangelical right was full of sh*t all along and only prayed together at those conferences they'd gather at in order to keep guns legal and keep from having to press one for English. I'm clutching my pearls.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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13 hours ago, Nevada Convert said:

Dude, in 2016 they were faced with the reality that they were going to have to compromise their values voting for either candidate. They couldn’t avoid it. So the question becomes: Which one would be worse than the other? 

There really wasn’t a classy candidate with a lot of character between Trump and Hill. But obviously, if they voted for Hillary, the Supreme Court would’ve become solid left for decades destroying their chances to over turn R vs W, the 2nd amendment would be in jeopardy, there would essentially be an open border bringing in 2-3 million immigrants per year that would eventually vote Dem, and that would be enough to make some once  red GOP states into blue, thus making it extremely hard for a Republican to ever win the presidency ever again. 

Now THAT would easily be the biggest betrayal of their Christian values impacting a span of approximately 40 years and longer......even the future of the country forever. Comparing that to compromising their values on Trump’s character of past deeds, his immature whining tweets, etc. That is such small potatoes compared to the future of the country being on the line, and it’s really silly to even debate about it. 

Yawn.  2-3 million immigrants per year huh?  Here is the last 30 years of data.  An increase of 7 million over 30 years equates to an increase of 0.23M per year, not to mention an actual decrease over the last decade.  Oh that evil Obama and his master plan right?  Exaggeration does you no favors my friend in trying to make a point.  I can already hear people giving Trump credit for what has happened since 2006, because they don't know any better.  The Fox News approach.

https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/

PH_2018.11.27_Unauthorized-Immigration-Estimates_1-01.png

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1 hour ago, alum93 said:

Yawn.  2-3 million immigrants per year huh?  Here is the last 30 years of data.  An increase of 7 million over 30 years equates to an increase of 0.23M per year, not to mention an actual decrease over the last decade.  Oh that evil Obama and his master plan right?  Exaggeration does you no favors my friend in trying to make a point.  I can already hear people giving Trump credit for what has happened since 2006, because they don't know any better.  The Fox News approach.

 https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/

PH_2018.11.27_Unauthorized-Immigration-Estimates_1-01.png

And that doesn't even deal with the real question - what is Christian about cracking down on illegal immigration? If, indeed, the American Evangelical movement is actually about faith-based issues, in what way does that number have anything to do with making our policies informed by the Bible?

Answer: it doesn't.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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6 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

And that doesn't even deal with the real question - what is Christian about cracking down on illegal immigration? If, indeed, the American Evangelical movement is actually about faith-based issues, in what way does that number have anything to do with making our policies informed by the Bible?

Answer: it doesn't.

There is a quote in the bible to justify anything. 

 

Romans 13, he stated that everyone must “obey the laws of our government, because God has ordained the government for his purposes.”

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1 minute ago, bluerules009 said:

There is a quote in the bible to justify anything. 

 

Romans 13, he stated that everyone must “obey the laws of our government, because God has ordained the government for his purposes.”

I read that as proof that democracy is inherently immoral, since it takes the rule of law out of the hands of God and puts it into the hands of idiot congressmen. 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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14 hours ago, renoskier said:

Sorry Stunner, but when I think of the past polygamous history of the LSD church, it seems more as though they embraced, codified, and endorsed man's "testosterone-fueled" behavior.

They didn't do this for the women.

Again, this was a part of human history, all of which has changed, even the LDS Church.  Someone above stated that societies have evolved and changed, but churches don't or haven't.  That's just not accurate.

The World Needs More Cowboys!

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5 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

I read that as proof that democracy is inherently immoral, since it takes the rule of law out of the hands of God and puts it into the hands of idiot congressmen. 

It is in the hands of you and me, we elected the congressman.

The law would be fine and is similar to laws in all western countries.   The problem is we haven't enforced the law.  We don't penalize busineses that hire illegals.  We encourage a certain amount of illegals to work in this country because we need the labor.   Every silicon valley billionaire needs servants, farmers need workers etc...

It is this non enforcement that creates a system where we have dreamers.  Where Joe Columbian thinks he can get into the U.S. and is willing to use his kids or someone else's kids to get into this country.

It is also the media brainwashing that has many of you upset over conditions that is imposed on these illegals which are better than they are used to in most cases.  They are better fed, provided better sanitation and certainly more secure even than in their own countries.  Or they wouldn't have come.

 

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15 minutes ago, pokebball said:

Again, this was a part of human history, all of which has changed, even the LDS Church.  Someone above stated that societies have evolved and changed, but churches don't or haven't.  That's just not accurate.

Stunner's arguments are not about the ability of institutions to change. They are about his (purported) perception that religious institutions are a) inherently better for women then for men, without any explanation of how that may have been more or less true over time, and b) uniquely designed to curtail the brutishness of members of male sex, a brutishness that they cannot otherwise control because of the determinations of nature. They suggest something intrinsically true, something essential, about religious institutions. So historical examples are appropriate as an argument against it.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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14 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

It is in the hands of you and me, we elected the congressman.

The law would be fine and is similar to laws in all western countries.   The problem is we haven't enforced the law.  We don't penalize busineses that hire illegals.  We encourage a certain amount of illegals to work in this country because we need the labor.   Every silicon valley billionaire needs servants, farmers need workers etc...

It is this non enforcement that creates a system where we have dreamers.  Where Joe Columbian thinks he can get into the U.S. and is willing to use his kids or someone else's kids to get into this country.

It is also the media brainwashing that has many of you upset over conditions that is imposed on these illegals which are better than they are used to in most cases.  They are better fed, provided better sanitation and certainly more secure even than in their own countries.  Or they wouldn't have come.

 

what does any of that have to do with the evangelical movement?

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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