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jdgaucho

OT - UMKC to leave the WAC in 2020, will rejoin the Summit League

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Just now, bigd said:

Just don't see it, if they went anywhere it would be the Summit League or WCC. 

I doubt WCC or Big West would want them and I would think they stand the best chance at competing in the WAC but that's just me

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12 minutes ago, UofMTigers said:

I doubt WCC or Big West would want them and I would think they stand the best chance at competing in the WAC but that's just me

The WAC is just too far down in stability in prestige for Air Force to move there. They wouldn't go to the Big West either. At least in the Summit they have a travel partner in Denver and some other major state schools. I just don't think they want to consistently play schools like Dixie State and UTRGV. 

Its highly doubtful that they ever move, but if they were to they would only go if the WCC or Summit accepted them.

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1 hour ago, bigd said:

The WAC is just too far down in stability in prestige for Air Force to move there. They wouldn't go to the Big West either. At least in the Summit they have a travel partner in Denver and some other major state schools. I just don't think they want to consistently play schools like Dixie State and UTRGV. 

Its highly doubtful that they ever move, but if they were to they would only go if the WCC or Summit accepted them.

 

Air Force aligning with five UCs and Hawaii might be somewhat appealing.  Academic prestige is a factor, albeit a small one.

 

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2 minutes ago, jdgaucho said:

 

Air Force aligning with five UCs and Hawaii might be somewhat appealing.  Academic prestige is a factor, albeit a small one.

 

Academic prestige is huge, which is why they wouldn't join the WAC. I'm sure Air Force is jealous that there isn't a western version of the Patriot League. 

The Big West is just too California-centric, it wouldn't make sense for an academy who part of their mission is to play games all around the country.

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5 hours ago, alum93 said:

The SWAC is more stable too, but i wouldn't want to be a part of it.  Here is the reality.  NMSU would love to have a stable conference for all it's sports, and that would include FBS football.  Since that isn't an option, the WAC is just fine.  Our basketball is in as good of shape as it has been in years.  I think it's won something like 7 or 8 in a row versus MWC.  I've lost count.  I know it is 5 versus UNM.  We are getting better seeds in the NCAA.  Our best free throw shooter missed in the last 2 seconds or we beat Auburn.  As far as comparing WAC to Big Sky,  the WAC gets better seeds for it's champ,  the league has better RPI and now NET rankings.  And it has for years.  It's also had higher rankings as a conference than CUSA and Big West last couple years.  Seeding for the lone bid reflect that.  The Big Sky isn't a better basketball conference, so take that off the table.  It has FCS football, so take that off the table.  So i see no reason NMSU would ever consider the Big Sky like Idaho did, unless the WAC folded.

What would it take for the WAC to go away?  Without UMKC, it still has 8 members.  Let's say for argument sake, Chicago State went away.  That isn't happening for 2019, so you would be talking 2021 at the earliest.  That still leaves 7 teams.  NMSU, UTRGV, UVU, Cal Baptist aren't going anywhere.  I guess GCU could one day be invited to a WCC type conference, but does anyone really see that happening in next couple years?  So again, you are speculating about maybe 5 years from now?  I guess anything could happen.  Boise State could go to AAC, but chances are slim to none anytime soon.  Ditto for CSU.  So i don't see the doom and gloom.  The WAC bottomed out when the MWC schools left.  The next year it was one of the worst D1 conferences.  Since then, it has steadily improved to within 2-3 spots of MWC in overall rankings.  Call it 12 vs 15 depending on site.  As long as it stays in the mid teens and doesn't go back in the 20s,  we have a shot at an 11 or 12 seed.  Until a better conference comes calling, and the Big Sky isn't a better conference by any measure i have seen,  the WAC is just fine.  Plus, it's kind of cool to see all the MWC teams we have been able to sign for football next few years to home and home as an indy.  That alone makes the Big Sky option not a welcome one.  Add in a lower basketball ranking, and it makes zero sense.  

In 2018, the top 3 NET rankings for Big Sky were 124, 167, and 182.  The top 3 in WAC were 46 (NMSU), 100, 104.  All 3 WAC schools were above the best Big Sky school, hence a 12 seed versus a 15 seed.  And in terms of pulling off an upset, that is a HUGE difference in quality of team you play off the bat.  I don't see the Big Sky ranking higher than WAC anytime soon.  Losing UMKC, who was not a top 4-5 team, won't change that.  Lastly, Gonzaga staying home really helped the WAC more than anything.  That means they didn't need to look for another school, and probably won't anytime soon.  Nor does Big West or Big Sky out west.

https://www.ncaa.com/rankings/basketball-men/d1/ncaa-mens-basketball-net-rankings

If NMSU football was more successful I think they would probably be in MWC or C-USA for their sports. Football is what is pulling down NMSU right now. With UMKC and Bakersfield leaving and them adding Dixie St, I think it weakens the profile of the conference some. The two conferences with the most moving parts at the moment is WAC and Summit League. I would be surprised if Chicago St was around in 5 years. And we can face it WAC basketball is NMSU and everyone else. If given a choice between WAC and Big Sky for an invite, sorry Big Sky wins which Southern Utah has already shown as well. The thing with the schools in the WAC many are there because there is no where else for them to go. Just with how the Summit League came up about. Now the interesting idea is maybe something between WAC and Summit League. I think that would be good for basketball.

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On 6/22/2019 at 10:23 PM, UofMTigers said:

I wonder if Texas AM CC would make the jump to join Rio Grande Valley? WAC>Southland IMHO...they have baseball and Willis Wilson is a solid hoops coach.

Oh if Southland had room have Corpus Christi join their other Texan breathen in Southland conference?

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I do not see any way DU joins the WAC again. As a private university with top 100 academics, their only options are the WCC or Big East (a reach). Either way, DU needs to figure out basketball. As much money as they spend, you would would think that they could figure out hoops but it has been a struggle. Otherwise, they have won the Directors Cup as the best non-football school 11 of the past 12 years so they are very good at soccer, volleyball, hockey, lacrosse, gymnastics, tennis, golf and other sports. But zero chance Denver moves to the WAC.

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16 hours ago, UofMTigers said:

one day UTEP will wake up...I don't get it. They have a rich hoops tradition, nice facility, nice practice facility, good market. They even have a nice football facility...they should be good.

THey did have a pretty good program when they were in the WAC. Since 2002-03 basketball season they have had only 5 losing season with 3 of them coming the last three seasons also with 8 20 or more win seasons. So they have kind of fallen off the cliff the last few years in basketball. 

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38 minutes ago, wolfpack1 said:

If NMSU football was more successful I think they would probably be in MWC or C-USA for their sports. Football is what is pulling down NMSU right now. With UMKC and Bakersfield leaving and them adding Dixie St, I think it weakens the profile of the conference some. The two conferences with the most moving parts at the moment is WAC and Summit League. I would be surprised if Chicago St was around in 5 years. And we can face it WAC basketball is NMSU and everyone else. If given a choice between WAC and Big Sky for an invite, sorry Big Sky wins which Southern Utah has already shown as well. The thing with the schools in the WAC many are there because there is no where else for them to go. Just with how the Summit League came up about. Now the interesting idea is maybe something between WAC and Summit League. I think that would be good for basketball.

Having said all that, the question i answered was on performance.  The top 3 teams were all ranked higher than top Big Sky team.  And that isn't a one year deal.  The WAC gets better seeds and better conference rankings.  It doesn't mean it is more stable, but it does mean the teams on average are stronger top to bottom.  The combination of NMSU, GCU, and UVU is better than anything the Big Sky had.  As long as those 3 are together,  it will probably rank higher year in and year out.  We'll see how UVU does without Pope.  Majerle has built a nice program in Phoenix.  It needs to still grow, but it has become a top 3-4 WAC program and has had great games with NMSU for several years.  Until the Big Sky gets higher rankings, the WAC is better for NMSU.  Frankly, i am not sure we could have the RPI we have had the last few years, sorry "NET" for 2018,  if we were in the Big West or Big Sky.  Maybe with our OOC wins.  When those other conferences perform better are have higher ratings, and we all refernce the same sites for conference ratings,  i will be more than happy to admit it.  As far as Chicago State, every conference has an anchor or two.  They are the one WAC school that hasn't been able to turn any corner.  Last year WAC had one sub 300 team and they were it, as expected.  The MWC had 2 sub 300 teams,  Wyoming and SJSU.   The MWC had 3 top 100 teams.  The WAC had 2, with GCU barely missing at 104.  The Big Sky had no top 100 teams and 2 sub 300 teams. The Big West had 1 top 100 team and 2 sub 300 teams.  I would bet the strength of conferences for MWC, WAC, Big West, and Big Sky will be similar and in the same order for 2019 as well.  The WAC will be within 2-4 spot of MWC out of 30+ D1 conferences.  NMSU and GCU will probably battle for WAC title, Nevada and USU for MWC.  Last year the WAC went something like 9-5 vs MWC or 8-4,  the teams will probably match up well again this season.  

https://www.ncaa.com/rankings/basketball-men/d1/ncaa-mens-basketball-net-rankings

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2 hours ago, wolfpack1 said:

If NMSU football was more successful I think they would probably be in MWC or C-USA for their sports. Football is what is pulling down NMSU right now. With UMKC and Bakersfield leaving and them adding Dixie St, I think it weakens the profile of the conference some. The two conferences with the most moving parts at the moment is WAC and Summit League. I would be surprised if Chicago St was around in 5 years. And we can face it WAC basketball is NMSU and everyone else. If given a choice between WAC and Big Sky for an invite, sorry Big Sky wins which Southern Utah has already shown as well. The thing with the schools in the WAC many are there because there is no where else for them to go. Just with how the Summit League came up about. Now the interesting idea is maybe something between WAC and Summit League. I think that would be good for basketball.

If UVU and GCU were in the Big Sky they would both be in the top 3 in men’s basketball almost every year. Yea the Big Sky is more stable, but the WAC is without question the better basketball conference. 

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2 hours ago, alum93 said:

Having said all that, the question i answered was on performance.  The top 3 teams were all ranked higher than top Big Sky team.  And that isn't a one year deal.  The WAC gets better seeds and better conference rankings.  It doesn't mean it is more stable, but it does mean the teams on average are stronger top to bottom.  The combination of NMSU, GCU, and UVU is better than anything the Big Sky had.  As long as those 3 are together,  it will probably rank higher year in and year out.  We'll see how UVU does without Pope.  Majerle has built a nice program in Phoenix.  It needs to still grow, but it has become a top 3-4 WAC program and has had great games with NMSU for several years.  Until the Big Sky gets higher rankings, the WAC is better for NMSU.  Frankly, i am not sure we could have the RPI we have had the last few years, sorry "NET" for 2018,  if we were in the Big West or Big Sky.  Maybe with our OOC wins.  When those other conferences perform better are have higher ratings, and we all refernce the same sites for conference ratings,  i will be more than happy to admit it.  As far as Chicago State, every conference has an anchor or two.  They are the one WAC school that hasn't been able to turn any corner.  Last year WAC had one sub 300 team and they were it, as expected.  The MWC had 2 sub 300 teams,  Wyoming and SJSU.   The MWC had 3 top 100 teams.  The WAC had 2, with GCU barely missing at 104.  The Big Sky had no top 100 teams and 2 sub 300 teams. The Big West had 1 top 100 team and 2 sub 300 teams.  I would bet the strength of conferences for MWC, WAC, Big West, and Big Sky will be similar and in the same order for 2019 as well.  The WAC will be within 2-4 spot of MWC out of 30+ D1 conferences.  NMSU and GCU will probably battle for WAC title, Nevada and USU for MWC.  Last year the WAC went something like 9-5 vs MWC or 8-4,  the teams will probably match up well again this season.  

https://www.ncaa.com/rankings/basketball-men/d1/ncaa-mens-basketball-net-rankings

 

All NET and h2h aside, when all was said and done - NMSU, Nevada, Montana and USU all went out in the first round of the NCAAs.  UC Irvine advanced to the second round.  

2 credits for the BW and MW, 1 for the Big Sky and WAC.  Something else to consider.

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2 hours ago, bigd said:

Academic prestige is huge, which is why they wouldn't join the WAC. I'm sure Air Force is jealous that there isn't a western version of the Patriot League. 

The Big West is just too California-centric, it wouldn't make sense for an academy who part of their mission is to play games all around the country.

Association with a military academy only enhances a conference's prestige, regardless of their athletics prowess.  The WCC or Summit would definitely make a play for Air Force if they ever decided they needed a new home (the Summit could use an extra baseball program).  I concede the BW won't be so high on them, but it would really like their academic standing.  

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The lack of stability in the WAC will make any school like Denver hesitant to ever join. UMKC was smart to leave. The conference is a few moves away from not having enough teams to operate several sports and then needing to dissolve. 

NMSU could easily get a call from CUSA to backfill for a team leaving to go to the AAC. I also wouldn’t be surprised to see GCU or Seattle in the WCC someday. Chicago State is also likely gone within 5 years. 

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2 hours ago, Ram1554 said:

The lack of stability in the WAC will make any school like Denver hesitant to ever join. UMKC was smart to leave. The conference is a few moves away from not having enough teams to operate several sports and then needing to dissolve. 

NMSU could easily get a call from CUSA to backfill for a team leaving to go to the AAC. I also wouldn’t be surprised to see GCU or Seattle in the WCC someday. Chicago State is also likely gone within 5 years. 

Yea the biggest problem for the WAC is that they don’t have a true core of schools that are natural conference-mates. The Big Sky has all the schools in the northwest and Weber, plus NAU who has a lot of historical ties to the aforementioned schools. Summit has the 5 I29 schools (4 Dakotas plus Nebraska-Omaha). MWC Is filled with a bunch of schools that have been conference-mates for decades in the MWC, WAC, and BW.

But the WAC has none of that, which presents two big issues. One, the schools have no history so none of them would hesitate to leave for a better situation. Two, they are so spread out that they have to worry about a ton of different conferences poaching their members. Almost any conference expansion can trickle down and affect them.

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1 minute ago, SalinasSpartan said:

Yea the biggest problem for the WAC is that they don’t have a true core of schools that are natural conference-mates. The Big Sky has all the schools in the northwest and Weber, plus NAU who has a lot of historical ties to the aforementioned schools. Summit has the 5 I29 schools (4 Dakotas plus Nebraska-Omaha). MWC Is filled with a bunch of schools that have been conference-mates for decades in the MWC, WAC, and BW.

But the WAC has none of that, which presents two big issues. One, the schools have no history so none of them would hesitate to leave for a better situation. Two, they are so spread out that they have to worry about a ton of different conferences poaching their members. Almost any conference expansion can trickle down and affect them.

 

Well stated.  But lying within those two big problems is the one saving grace for the current WAC.  Who else wants Utah Valley, UT-Rio Grande Valley or Chicago State?  Or Cal Baptist and Dixie State?? 

I don't believe the Big Sky will add a non football member.  The list of potential poachers is small.

 

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31 minutes ago, jdgaucho said:

 

Well stated.  But lying within those two big problems is the one saving grace for the current WAC.  Who else wants Utah Valley, UT-Rio Grande Valley or Chicago State?  Or Cal Baptist and Dixie State?? 

I don't believe the Big Sky will add a non football member.  The list of potential poachers is small.

 

Essentially the point i have made, WAC and to an extent Summit League is filled with schools that don't have any other homes. If Hair would change his mind and call NMSU tonight and say hey you want to come to MWC for basketball and baseball I think they would jump at the chance. If Grand Canyon and/or Seattle get a call from WCC they are gone, I would be surprised if Chicago St is around in 5 years and who knows how Cal Baptist and Dixie St will survive yet.

Then again WAC could survive by being on the edge

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3 hours ago, wolfpack1 said:

Essentially the point i have made, WAC and to an extent Summit League is filled with schools that don't have any other homes. If Hair would change his mind and call NMSU tonight and say hey you want to come to MWC for basketball and baseball I think they would jump at the chance. If Grand Canyon and/or Seattle get a call from WCC they are gone, I would be surprised if Chicago St is around in 5 years and who knows how Cal Baptist and Dixie St will survive yet.

Then again WAC could survive by being on the edge

 

For sure, NMSU would jump at the chance to come here.  That's as certain a lock as you can get.

If Grand Canyon bribes a conference with cash, err makes a charitable donation, someone will take them.  Good location, decent facilities, sports mix.  

As long as Mark Few and Gonzaga dictate things in the WCC, Seattle's not getting that call.  While Grand Canyon might, an NCAA bid would really help their cause.

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Here is an article on the conversion to "non profit" for GCU.  

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshmoody/2018/07/17/for-profit-giant-goes-nonprofit-amid-questions-and-concerns/#7c895c3d5bbe

Grand Canyon Education sold the school for $875 million to a newly formed nonprofit that will assume the Grand Canyon University name.

In addition to his presidential role at GCU, Brian Mueller will serve as the CEO for Grand Canyon Education Inc, the former owner, which will provide educational services for the university, handling technological needs, marketing and promotions, financial-aid and more. That model may be a nod to the future, notes The Chronicle of Higher Education, with more for-profits shifting to the role of service provider for nonprofit arms. According to a corporate filing, the newly minted nonprofit will pay out 60% of tuition and fees to its not-so-distant owner.

“[Grand Canon Education Inc] no longer owns and operates a regulated institution of higher education, but instead provides a bundle of services in support of New GCU’s operations. These services include technology, academic and counseling services and support and marketing for New GCU’s ground traditional and online students. Technology services include the ongoing improvement and maintenance of educational infrastructure, including online course delivery and management, student records, assessment, customer relations management, and other internal administration systems,” reads part of the corporate filing with the Securities and Exchanges Commission.

The “Master Services Agreement” between the two entities is set for 15 years. Part of the agreement includes a penalty if GCU terminates the agreement early, which would require a payout of 100% of the fees in the following year. Similarly, a nonrenewal fee of 50% is included in the deal.

The nature of the tight-knit relationship between GCU and the Grand Canyon Education Inc has alarmed some critics of for-profit education.

“No other university in the country has its CEO working for its contractor and for itself,” Robert Shireman, a former member of the Obama administration’s Department of Education and part of the progressive Century Foundation think tank, told The Phoenix New Times. He added: “The wolves are putting on sheep’s clothing, and hoping that the rest of us will not notice.”

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