Do You Ever Stop and ask Yourself Why?

[toonkee]

Why are more socialist ideas and policies gaining traction?

Why nationalist and isolationist ideas have become popular, not just in the US but in other places in the world?

Why a guy like Trump won and why a guy like Bernie could win?

What are the typical conditions that lead to these realities?

 

 

 

 

[bluerules009]

1 hour ago, toonkee said:

Why are more socialist ideas and policies gaining traction?

Why nationalist and isolationist ideas have become popular, not just in the US but in other places in the world?

Why a guy like Trump won and why a guy like Bernie could win?

What are the typical conditions that lead to these realities?

 

 

 

 

Ignorance of history and lack of morals.

Socialism alway fails, always has, always will, only those ignorant of history would think it a good idea.

Nationalism taken too far always leads to stagnation and failure as well.   Although the U.S. is so far from that problem it is ridiculous both democrats and republicans have for the last 7 decades been taken advantage of as policeman of the world and the purveyors of welfare for health care and so many other issues it has started to cause resentment.

Throw in a lack of morals where you have created a culture of "I deserve everything", and I should not have to work or show any restraint to get there.  These people are willing to to steal from others to get what they could easily work for on their own.   Using the government to steal they think makes it right.

 

[soupslam1]

Socialism has the idealistic and noble mentality of trying to create equality for all. All working for the good of all. Human nature being what it is, in that situation why work harder if the government is going to take and distribute whatever extra I earn and I get the same as everyone else. Or, why not barely work as Im still going to get the same as everyone else. The government will take care of me. People are naturally lazy if it doesn’t directly benefit them. That mentality drags everyone down. The result a poorer standard of life for everyone. 

Capitalism works because people are naturally greedy. They want more and better stuff. Most recognize if they are smart and work harder than others they will have a much more comfortable life. The benefit of capitalism is potential upward mobility for all that are willing to work hard. The result a wider range between poor and rich. 

Both are obviously generalizations and the extremes, but greed has proven it prevails over altruism. 

[mysfit]

Widening economic gap.

With the people in power pointing out scapegoats as targets so people won't  realize it's the rich and powerful to blame.

[soupslam1]

38 minutes ago, mysfit said:

Widening economic gap.

With the people in power pointing out scapegoats as targets so people won't  realize it's the rich and powerful to blame.

That’s the victim mentality. Instead of taking responsibility for ones life, blame others for my failure. Many of those rich and powerful are people just like us. Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos weren't born into wealth. Bezos actually worked at McDonald’s. Granted there are some that need to be reeled in, but they are the guys paying most of the taxes and providing jobs to the rest of us. They are obviously going to have a bigger say in how the country is run. The fry cook at Denny’s  has very little say other than his or her vote. 

[toonkee]

This isn't an exercise in socialism versus capitalism. I'm not advocating for socialism. I'm asking why these types of ideas are taking hold at this time. Why are they more appealing than let's say 30 years ago? We need to have serious conversations and realizations about the causes of our current, unhealthy situation if we are to address the roots of it rather than bicker about the superficial symptoms of it.

[soupslam1]

IMO I think younger people don’t want to have to compete and work hard at a job with the regimentation, uncertainty, and stress involved. I also get the feeling that people want government to take care of them, or at least be their life line, cradle to grave. They want a simpler and stress free lifestyle. Thus, the trend toward socialism. They think socialism will be the cure for poverty and make us more equal. Just my two cents. 

[mugtang]

1 hour ago, soupslam1 said:

IMO I think younger people don’t want to have to compete and work hard at a job with the regimentation and stress involved. Face it, most don’t like it. They do it to eat and have a place to sleep. I also get the feeling that people want government to take care of them cradle to grave. They want a simpler and stress free lifestyle. Thus, the trend toward socialism. They think socialism will be the cure for poverty and make us more equal. Just my two cents. 

I don’t think that’s necessarily true.  Things have just gotten so ridiculously expensive that it’s hard for the millennial generation and the generation following them to achieve the same American dream their parents and grandparents had.  They’ve been taught they need to get a college degree to get ahead.  They go to school and end up with 30k in student debt.  So they’re starting out behind. If they get sick they’re going to go even further into debt.  A dollar doesn’t go as far as it used to.  Wages haven’t really kept up with inflation. When they do get into the workforce they’re stuck paying into a tax system that isn’t going to end up benefiting them (social security). Their wealth is being transferred to the boomer generation and beyond to pay for their mistakes.  I can understand why they’re turning more and more to socialism. 

As for @toonkee’s question about the rise of Nationalism globally it is the result of a few different things depending on where its happening. The rise in nationalism in Europe I think a lot of it stems from the influx of refugees from the Middle East.  Humans are tribal in nature and we traditionally want to be around people that look and believe like we do.  Europe has been primarily a homogenous population for most of history and the indigenous population feels their power eroding due to immigration and low birth rates.  I think in the United States that is part of what’s causing it but it’s more along the lines the middle class feels more and more left behind in the new economy they’ve seen many of their jobs exported overseas and many others believe (mostly wrongly) that immigrants (specifically illegal immigrants) are taking their jobs. So protectionist and nationalist policies can be seen as a appealing to those people which is ultimately why Trump won in the rust belt states.  People who feel left behind in the new economy don’t give a shit about things like gay rights or gender identity when they can’t find a job to match their skill set and are struggling to feed their family.  This is also another reason why socialist policies, in addition to what I mentioned above, are gaining traction.  

Edit:  Also, the European homogenous populations is why it’s easier for them to support socialist policies.  It’s human tribalism.  It’s easy for people to get behind supporting others when they all look like, sound like and believe similar to you.  

[toonkee]

40 minutes ago, soupslam1 said:

IMO I think younger people don’t want to have to compete and work hard at a job with the regimentation, uncertainty, and stress involved. I also get the feeling that people want government to take care of them, or at least be their life line, cradle to grave. They want a simpler and stress free lifestyle. Thus, the trend toward socialism. They think socialism will be the cure for poverty and make us more equal. Just my two cents. 

I think you are oversimplifying things. Just blaming it all in lazy kids and all. Even so, why do young people feel this way now, as opposed to 30 year ago? Why now?

[soupslam1]

17 minutes ago, toonkee said:

I think you are oversimplifying things. Just blaming it all in lazy kids and all. Even so, why do young people feel this way now, as opposed to 30 year ago? Why now?

I don’t think they are lazy. They look at the stress and long hours to get ahead in the work place and don’t feel it’s worth the impact on their quality of life. Not only that, colleges have become bastions of liberalism that promote socialism. Look at some of the classes and majors that exist today. The current generation doesn’t think like the generation of 30-40 years ago. And the older generation didn’t think like the generation before them. 

Too bad there aren’t a lot of younger members on the board that would have better insight. 

[soupslam1]

25 minutes ago, mugtang said:

I don’t think that’s necessarily true.  Things have just gotten so ridiculously expensive that it’s hard for the millennial generation and the generation following them to achieve the same American dream their parents and grandparents had.  They’ve been taught they need to get a college degree to get ahead.  They go to school and end up with 30k in student debt.  So they’re starting out behind. If they get sick they’re going to go even further into debt.  A dollar doesn’t go as far as it used to.  Wages haven’t really kept up with inflation. When they do get into the workforce they’re stuck paying into a tax system that isn’t going to end up benefiting them (social security). Their wealth is being transferred to the boomer generation and beyond and to pay for their mistakes.  I can understand why they’re turning more and more to socialism. 

As for @toonkee’s question about the rise of Nationalism globally is the result of a few different things depending on where its happening. The rise in nationalism in Europe I think a lot of it stems from the influx of refugees from the Middle East.  Humans are tribal in nature and we traditionally want to be around people that look and believe like we do.  Europe has been primarily a homogenous population for most of history and the indigenous population feels their power eroding due to immigration and low birth rates.  I think in the United States I think that is part of what’s causing it but it’s more along the lines the middle class feels more and more left behind in the new economy they’ve seen many of their jobs exported overseas and many others believe (mostly wrongly) that immigrants (specifically illegal immigrants) are taking their jobs. So protectionist and nationalist policies can be seen as a appealing to those people which is ultimately why Trump won in the rust belt states.  People who feel left behind in the new economy don’t give a shit about things like gay rights or gender identity when they can’t find a job to match their skill set and are struggling to feed their family.  This is also another reason why socialist policies, in addition to what I mentioned above, are gaining traction.  

I don’t dispute what you say, but I don’t think socialism is going to be the answer. It will make things worse. 

[mugtang]

3 minutes ago, soupslam1 said:

I don’t dispute what you say, but I don’t think socialism is going to be the answer. It will make things worse. 

I’m not saying it’s the answer.  I’m just saying the why it’s grown in popularity especially with younger people.  

[bluerules009]

2 hours ago, mysfit said:

Widening economic gap.

With the people in power pointing out scapegoats as targets so people won't  realize it's the rich and powerful to blame.

Yeah those mean greedy rich and powerful who are the reason everyone has a job and the ones who pay for all the government and your welfare programs.

Yeah you are right its their fault.  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   

[toonkee]

6 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

Yeah those mean greedy rich and powerful who are the reason everyone has a job and the ones who pay for all the government and your welfare programs.

Yeah you are right its their fault.  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   

So why are people wanting now welfare? Why now with record low unemployment, etc? Why are people feeling this way?

[bluerules009]

1 hour ago, toonkee said:

This isn't an exercise in socialism versus capitalism. I'm not advocating for socialism. I'm asking why these types of ideas are taking hold at this time. Why are they more appealing than let's say 30 years ago? We need to have serious conversations and realizations about the causes of our current, unhealthy situation if we are to address the roots of it rather than bicker about the superficial symptoms of it.

70 years ago was FDR he was an out and out communist.   Socialism has always been something the young, inexperienced and stupid look on as a panacea.    Star Trek was a socialist/communist propaganda tool for decades.   Yet it is so funny they can't even explain how it works there.   Damnation and Mr. Robot are two current offerings that glorify socialism today.  I am sure there are many others.

[bluerules009]

36 minutes ago, toonkee said:

So why are people wanting now welfare? Why now with record low unemployment, etc? Why are people feeling this way?

There has always been a welfare class.  Read some history, there has always been those who steal from others.

 

The difference is today because of capitalism the welfare class are better off than Queen Elizabeth of England in the 17th century.   They have better housing, healthcare, food, entertainment and no limit on the number of kids they can have.

Welfare has become a pretty comfortable place for so many.  That is the problem with the policies we have today you destroy families and make them addicted to government.  Which is great for the democrats who want votes but it destroys peoples lives before they are even born.

Not to mention democrats campaign on a racist agenda telling them they can't succeed without white mans help.  They can only live on welfare and do crime.  Which the media and some of the minorities so called leaders parrot over and over.  They are like Goebbels saying something so much that people think its true.

 

[Nevada Convert]

5 hours ago, bluerules009 said:

70 years ago was FDR he was an out and out communist.   Socialism has always been something the young, inexperienced and stupid look on as a panacea.    Star Trek was a socialist/communist propaganda tool for decades.   Yet it is so funny they can't even explain how it works there.   Damnation and Mr. Robot are two current offerings that glorify socialism today.  I am sure there are many others.

Which episode of Star Trek do you think is the most communist? Who do you think is more dedicated to Communism, Captain Kirk or Spock? Poor Stalin, he was born waaaay too soon because he would’ve made a great Captain Kirk. There’s no question the Star Trek crew loved the idea of a single payer health care system, especially because they didn’t even have to pay anything. Everyone saw one doctor, Dr McCoy, and having the ability to see and choose a doc from multiple doc choices was very alien to them.

[Stealthlobo]

8 hours ago, soupslam1 said:

I don’t think they are lazy. They look at the stress and long hours to get ahead in the work place and don’t feel it’s worth the impact on their quality of life. Not only that, colleges have become bastions of liberalism that promote socialism. Look at some of the classes and majors that exist today. The current generation doesn’t think like the generation of 30-40 years ago. And the older generation didn’t think like the generation before them. 

Too bad there aren’t a lot of younger members on the board that would have better insight. 

I'm not super young but in my early thirties I've observed a few trends. First, today it seems you need to start very early to get ahead.  I was lucky enough that I had parents who made sure I did well in HS and didn't party.  Because of that I got amazing scholarships which allowed me to get through college (where I was allowed to party a shit load) with only about 30k in debt which I've already paid off and I'm able to use my money for "more comfortable" living. Today I see my co-workers graduating with 150-200+k in debt on avg. 

Second, I'm not a sociologist or psychologist, but it seems social media makes it almost where everyone knows everything.  Everyone compares themselves to their peers and feel life has been unfair to them. People usually post only the best parts of their lives and others get jealous and possibly discouraged with the direction of their own lives.

Just some personal observations, but I'm definitely in the camp that is not for socialism.

[mysfit]

People are having to work 2 jobs in many cases.

Less than 70% of jobs support a middle class lifestyle. Pointing to unemployment numbers misses the larger picture.

 

Current jobs don't pay as well, don't have great or any benefits, and are unstable. There has been zero trickle down it's all log jammed at the top. While the top off shores jobs or increases automation and blaming illegal immigrants. It's created significant instability and made it easy to point fingers at immigrants for the tired and worn out masses who want to believe in a silver bullet fix for their problems.

 

And it's not just the US, it's world wide.

[East Coast Aztec]

15 hours ago, toonkee said:

Why are more socialist ideas and policies gaining traction?

Why nationalist and isolationist ideas have become popular, not just in the US but in other places in the world?

Why a guy like Trump won and why a guy like Bernie could win?

What are the typical conditions that lead to these realities?

 

 

 

 

Because you can't spank your kids, have them work odd and summer jobs, and make them earn the trophies and ribbons they are given.