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Alabama Abortion Ban

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26 minutes ago, CV147 said:

There isn't a scientific consensus of when an embryo becomes a human life. It's ponderous how you continue this way.

I dare you to provide one bit of evidence in an internet link of such a consensus. It doesn't exist,

Sure there is.  HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!  You spend way too much time listening to the media and ignorant people without educations like teachers, journalists, actors and lawyers.

There has been a consensus about when human life begins since long before there was a civilization.  There were laws against abortion in the Hammurabi code for christs sake.

https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html

"Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote."
[England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]
 



"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).
"Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."
[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]
 



"Embryo: the developing organism from the time of fertilization until significant differentiation has occurred, when the organism becomes known as a fetus."
[Cloning Human Beings. Report and Recommendations of the National Bioethics Advisory Commission. Rockville, MD: GPO, 1997, Appendix-2.]
 



"Embryo: An organism in the earliest stage of development; in a man, from the time of conception to the end of the second month in the uterus."
[Dox, Ida G. et al. The Harper Collins Illustrated Medical Dictionary. New York: Harper Perennial, 1993, p. 146]
 



"Embryo: The early developing fertilized egg that is growing into another individual of the species. In man the term 'embryo' is usually restricted to the period of development from fertilization until the end of the eighth week of pregnancy."
[Walters, William and Singer, Peter (eds.). Test-Tube Babies. Melbourne: Oxford University Press, 1982, p. 160]
 



"The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]
 



"Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."
[Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]
 



"I would say that among most scientists, the word 'embryo' includes the time from after fertilization..."
[Dr. John Eppig, Senior Staff Scientist, Jackson Laboratory (Bar Harbor, Maine) and Member of the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 31]
 



"The development of a human begins with fertilization, a process by which the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Sadler, T.W. Langman's Medical Embryology. 7th edition. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins 1995, p. 3]

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20 hours ago, bluerules009 said:

Where did I say anything about "black babies", specifically?

I think we just got an insight into your thinking though, which is typical for an authoritarian democratl

In the one in reference it was merely about eugenics, but you have used the conservative schtick of caring about specific groups when it serves a purpose before.  Your last sentence is just cute, but you just can't put a square into a circle.

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Abortion is an issue that will never be agreed on between two large factions. The abortionists want complete freedom to abort up to the last day before birth, and there are some that even feel a late term aborted baby born alive should not be taken care of and be allowed to die. The pro life crowd feel life begins at conception and abortion at any time beyond conception is murder. 

Is there really any point in even debating the issue as strong feelings are held by both sides. There appears to be no compromise other than for some what term abortion can take place. 

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4 hours ago, East Coast Aztec said:

In the one in reference it was merely about eugenics, but you have used the conservative schtick of caring about specific groups when it serves a purpose before.  Your last sentence is just cute, but you just can't put a square into a circle.

You have a guilty conscience, which is not surprising.   I would feel bad if I were you too.

Describing events that happen over and over in history by people who think like you is not a schtick and I am not a conservative.

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On 5/18/2019 at 2:11 PM, Rebelbacker said:

My wife and I both think abortion is murder and we couldn't do it.

This is the crux of the pro choice argument. You and your wife believe this, and you're free to act on those beliefs. If someone believes differently they should have the same opportunity.

We should all be able to form our own opinions and take our own actions on this subject. We should not be subject to the opinions of others that strip us of the ability to make our own decisions.

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1 hour ago, WYO1016 said:

This is the crux of the pro choice argument. You and your wife believe this, and you're free to act on those beliefs. If someone believes differently they should have the same opportunity.

We should all be able to form our own opinions and take our own actions on this subject. We should not be subject to the opinions of others that strip us of the ability to make our own decisions.

+1

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2 hours ago, WYO1016 said:

This is the crux of the pro choice argument. You and your wife believe this, and you're free to act on those beliefs. If someone believes differently they should have the same opportunity.

We should all be able to form our own opinions and take our own actions on this subject. We should not be subject to the opinions of others that strip us of the ability to make our own decisions.

Abortion is the ultimate child abuse which we don’t otherwise tolerate in our society.

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9 minutes ago, soupslam1 said:

Abortion is the ultimate child abuse which we don’t otherwise tolerate in our society.

To you.

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2 hours ago, retrofade said:

To you.

To everyone who is logically consistent and not a hypocrite.

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@bluerules009 if you don't believe in abortions, just don't get one.  

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1 hour ago, Broncomare said:

@bluerules009 if you don't believe in abortions, just don't get one.  

So because you don't like laws against murder and don't agree with them you are just going to do as you please?

This is not just a female issue, like you want to frame it.  Males are aborted as much as females, all those aborted babies have a father who has no say.

If a female decides to have a kid she can sue the father for child support and he has no say.  He can't even abort his rights to the child which wouldn't even result in a death.  The female on the other hand can abort her rights by dropping the kid off at a fire house or by aborting it.  The female has no inherent responsibility.

If the father slipped something into the mothers food that caused her to abort the child he would be arrested for murder, while the mother could take that same substance and be lauded by the left for excersizing her rights.

You ever hear the phrase "deadbeat dad", if things were at all equal there would be a phrase in common usage "babykiller moms".

Yet you claim you want equal rights.    Which is a joke, you want equality when it suits you and you want  your special treatment the rest of the time.

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3 hours ago, retrofade said:

To you.

So what do you disagree with? Killing an unborn child is the worse thing you can do to a child. And child abuse usually results in the government stepping in and taking the child to protect the child. 

You can rationalize abortion a thousand different ways, but it’s still taking a life. If you’re good with that be honest and own it. 

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On 5/18/2019 at 1:11 PM, Rebelbacker said:

When my wife was pregnant we found out our son was going to have major medical issues. We knew what a few were going to be but not all. We had testing done to see if he was going to have Down Syndrome or Trisonomy-18. Both doctors brought up the topic of abortion at this meeting. The test results weren't back for a week and it was the longest week of my life. I had time to think about if I was strong enough to be a dad for a kid that had down's. I thought about my wife's health if we knew the kid wouldn't survive and what that would do to her mentally if she carried to term. I thought about her health because we didn't know what health risks she would have. There was a lot to think about and talk about.

In the end my wife was adamant she was not having an abortion no matter what. After taking a long look at myself I knew that no matter what the results were that I would be the best dad I could and I couldn't terminate that pregnancy unless my wife's health was at stake. As it turns out my son didn't have those issues. The pregnancy was very difficult for my wife and my son was born a month early but survived.

My wife and I both think abortion is murder and we couldn't do it. I think it should be only be used in cases of rape, incest or the health of the mother. But I do have empathy for women that are alone and feel this is their only choice. I have empathy for parents like us that had to make a choice. I don't have empathy for women that use abortion as just another form of birth control. There are too many other options to prevent pregnancy.

 

We need more discussion like this. Arguing only the medical technicalities does not serve us well. Thanks for giving your story.

 

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Just now, toonkee said:

We need more discussion like this. Arguing only the medical technicalities does not serve us well. Thanks for giving your story.

 

Especially because the science doesn't support your arguments, so I imagine you want to ignore them.

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21 minutes ago, Dinuba Dog said:

"If we don't allow millions of babies to be killed, PEOPLE WILL DIE!!!"

- Democrats

Sure can't argue with illogic like that.

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On 5/18/2019 at 1:11 PM, Rebelbacker said:

When my wife was pregnant we found out our son was going to have major medical issues. We knew what a few were going to be but not all. We had testing done to see if he was going to have Down Syndrome or Trisonomy-18. Both doctors brought up the topic of abortion at this meeting. The test results weren't back for a week and it was the longest week of my life. I had time to think about if I was strong enough to be a dad for a kid that had down's. I thought about my wife's health if we knew the kid wouldn't survive and what that would do to her mentally if she carried to term. I thought about her health because we didn't know what health risks she would have. There was a lot to think about and talk about.

In the end my wife was adamant she was not having an abortion no matter what. After taking a long look at myself I knew that no matter what the results were that I would be the best dad I could and I couldn't terminate that pregnancy unless my wife's health was at stake. As it turns out my son didn't have those issues. The pregnancy was very difficult for my wife and my son was born a month early but survived.

My wife and I both think abortion is murder and we couldn't do it. I think it should be only be used in cases of rape, incest or the health of the mother. But I do have empathy for women that are alone and feel this is their only choice. I have empathy for parents like us that had to make a choice. I don't have empathy for women that use abortion as just another form of birth control. There are too many other options to prevent pregnancy.

 

I appreciate the honesty in your post. There are a lot of people who go through what you went through, and in many cases it doesn't turn out as well for them as it did for you. I think that it is unfortunate that it often takes an experience like yours, one where you get a taste of the weight of these kinds of decisions, to have empathy for the people who actually face them. It's easy to say what you would do in the abstract. When you are in a position to actually consider the unthinkable, because it is a legitimate and probable outcome, it makes those pronouncements of what lies in the hearts of others facing the same choices all the more complicated. That is not a criticism of you - that seems to be a fact of the human experience. I'm glad you came out of it with empathy for others in a similar situation, even if you disagree with their choices.

A question that I have, be it for you or for anyone else, is this - How do you set up a system that keeps the range of necessary choices open for people in your position (or those who are in even tougher, if similar, positions), and that reflects the empathy that even some of the abortion hardliners on here seem to say we should have for the people in those positions, while at the same time taking those choices away from the women and families for whom they don't have such empathy? How do we allow people like yourself to make choices while removing abortion as a choice for people who want to use it as birth control or as a matter of "convenience?" 

Anyone who actually distrusts the government and who understands the ways in which bureaucracies dehumanize people through procedural approaches to moral questions, like we see with the EPA for instance, or more relevant to this issue the way we see these decisions can be made in Catholic hospitals, would take pause - or I hope they would.

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57 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

So because you don't like laws against murder and don't agree with them you are just going to do as you please?

This is not just a female issue, like you want to frame it.  Males are aborted as much as females, all those aborted babies have a father who has no say.

If a female decides to have a kid she can sue the father for child support and he has no say.  He can't even abort his rights to the child which wouldn't even result in a death.  The female on the other hand can abort her rights by dropping the kid off at a fire house or by aborting it.  The female has no inherent responsibility.

If the father slipped something into the mothers food that caused her to abort the child he would be arrested for murder, while the mother could take that same substance and be lauded by the left for excersizing her rights.

You ever hear the phrase "deadbeat dad", if things were at all equal there would be a phrase in common usage "babykiller moms".

Yet you claim you want equal rights.    Which is a joke, you want equality when it suits you and you want  your special treatment the rest of the time.

Your "beliefs" should not interfere with the rights to MY body.  Like Mug said, why don't boys start getting vasectomies at the age of 12 or 13?  Not every women can take the pill, without awful side effects, IUD's are dangerous.  One implanted into the my daughter's uteran wall.   Can't even begin to tell you how much she enjoyed having that removed.  You will never be able to understand what a pregnancy feels like or does to a woman's body.  Just like I don't know what it feels like to be kicked in the balls.  Each side is going to the extreme and there has to be a compromise in the the middle.  Roe v Wade is not going away.  

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9 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

I appreciate the honesty in your post. There are a lot of people who go through what you went through, and in many cases it doesn't turn out as well for them as it did for you. I think that it is unfortunate that it often takes an experience like yours, one where you get a taste of the weight of these kinds of decisions, to have empathy for the people who actually face them. It's easy to say what you would do in the abstract. When you are in a position to actually consider the unthinkable, because it is a legitimate and probable outcome, it makes those pronouncements of what lies in the hearts of others facing the same choices all the more complicated. That is not a criticism of you - that seems to be a fact of the human experience. I'm glad you came out of it with empathy for others in a similar situation, even if you disagree with their choices.

A question that I have, be it for you or for anyone else, is this - How do you set up a system that keeps the range of necessary choices open for people in your position (or those who are in even tougher, if similar, positions), and that reflects the empathy that even some of the abortion hardliners on here seem to say we should have for the people in those positions, while at the same time taking those choices away from the women and families for whom they don't have such empathy? How do we allow people like yourself to make choices while removing abortion as a choice for people who want to use it as birth control or as a matter of "convenience?" 

Anyone who actually distrusts the government and who understands the ways in which bureaucracies dehumanize people through procedural approaches to moral questions, like we see with the EPA for instance, or more relevant to this issue the way we see these decisions can be made in Catholic hospitals, would take pause - or I hope they would.

On one hand it is a hard question and the other it is easy. To me and many others we believe that abortion is murder. The option should be there in case of rape, incest or the health of the mother IMO. It used to be that the nations view of abortion was safe, legal and rare. That has now morphed into the other hand which seems to be abortion on demand. Is there a middle ground? Seems to me that it should be up to the individual states to determine what the rules in those states should be. I don't see Roe V Wade going away. But if each individual state wants to restrict the use I'm fine with it. If Alabama wants to drastically limit it and NY and Virginia want to allow 3rd trimester abortions then that is their choice. Does that make it harder for a woman in Alabama to have an abortion for the purpose of birth control? Yes it does. But it doesn't take away the option for her to go to a state that allows it. I don't have a better solution.

 

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59 minutes ago, Rebelbacker said:

On one hand it is a hard question and the other it is easy. To me and many others we believe that abortion is murder. The option should be there in case of rape, incest or the health of the mother IMO. It used to be that the nations view of abortion was safe, legal and rare. That has now morphed into the other hand which seems to be abortion on demand. Is there a middle ground? Seems to me that it should be up to the individual states to determine what the rules in those states should be. I don't see Roe V Wade going away. But if each individual state wants to restrict the use I'm fine with it. If Alabama wants to drastically limit it and NY and Virginia want to allow 3rd trimester abortions then that is their choice. Does that make it harder for a woman in Alabama to have an abortion for the purpose of birth control? Yes it does. But it doesn't take away the option for her to go to a state that allows it. I don't have a better solution.

 

The problem is that the determination of the "health of the mother" in this scenario is taken out of the hands of the mother, her family and her physician and put into the hands of some sort of bureaucratic process that is overseen most likely by a panel or committee. They decide if the health of the mother is sufficiently at risk to allow an abortion - which, after certain point, is probably just inducing labor and forcing a delivery. Even though it was mocked, I thought the idea of "death panels" when the ACA was being debated was a real concern, because that's what happens when the government decides what procedures can or can't be done at a given moment. I don't think abortion panels are a good thing either. And those actually do exist, today, in the USandA - even in states with very liberal abortion laws. 

In the other instance where you would have the same kind of process is in the instance of fetal conditions that the baby would not survive. Who would decide what threshold of probability has to be crossed before the family can decide if the pregnancy is doomed? Or what condition is severe enough? IMO, it is just as extreme a position to force a woman to carry a fetus to full term and to deliver knowing that baby will suffer and die in her arms as it is to allow her to choose the time and nature of its death and consider her own health in the decision.  

The pro life side often thinks it's armed with the ultimate inconvenient truth of a fetal heartbeat in these discussions, but the fact is that both sides have a lot of accounting to do in the squishy middle of an issue they claim is completely black-and-white. There's not an easy solution, but I don't think what is going on right now in America is anywhere close to where the solution lies.

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1 hour ago, Broncomare said:

Your "beliefs" should not interfere with the rights to MY body.  Like Mug said, why don't boys start getting vasectomies at the age of 12 or 13?  Not every women can take the pill, without awful side effects, IUD's are dangerous.  One implanted into the my daughter's uteran wall.   Can't even begin to tell you how much she enjoyed having that removed.  You will never be able to understand what a pregnancy feels like or does to a woman's body.  Just like I don't know what it feels like to be kicked in the balls.  Each side is going to the extreme and there has to be a compromise in the the middle.  Roe v Wade is not going away.  

The baby isn't "your body".

I haven't been discussing my beliefs just scientific fact.   Plus some legal facts.

 

I believe abortion should be legal at least through first trimester.  After that point i think it should be legal for the life of the mother which would be a really rare occurrence.   i also believe you don't understand how a father feels when his baby is aborted and he can do nothing.

Lots of excuses to take life in this world, a whole lot of them used in this thread to justify it for the sake of convenience.

The Virginia governor was talking about aborting a baby after it was born live.  That is what this thread is about.   I find that abhorrent.

 

 

 

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