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sebasour

Alabama Abortion Ban

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14 hours ago, pokebball said:

Not all pro lifers believe life begins at conception.  Viability is a very common belief.  So I think you need to adjust your opinion that pro lifers believe life begins at conception.

There was very recent legislation passed that allows a child that was just born, to be aborted.  I will agree with you that many states do restrict abortion after the second trimester, but I disagree with your generalization.  Most recent legislation suggest to me that the tribes on both sides are preparing for battle.

I have never said that the soul enters at the inception of the physical body.

Poor English on my part.  Should be I was not clear on your reasoning.  I did not mean to imply you said that.  

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This thread has been a cluster f**k, but I've definitely got some things to add.

My wife and I decided that we don't want to have kids. I took the necessary steps to ensure that would not happen. That being said, if my wife were to become pregnant it would be from one of two reasons:

1. She was unfaithful - If this is the case there is a conversation to be had by us that is none of anyone else's business

2. She was raped

In either case, in a state such as Alabama she would be REQUIRED to carry that fetus to term. 9 months of reminding her of either her mistake or the most awful thing that had ever happened to her. No one can convince me that ANY type of law that requires that is for the good of the people in any way shape or form.

 

Secondly, here are some factual statistics on abortion:

  • 91% of abortions occur before 13 weeks of gestation, according to the CDC
  • According to a survey conducted by the CDC of women who received an abortion after 16 weeks, 71% of them didn't know they were pregnant, or did not know that they were that far along
  • The World Health Organization reports that in countries where abortion is illegal the abortion rate is nearly equal to countries where it is legal
  • Also according to the WHO, unsafe abortion is the #1 reason for maternal death
  • The annual cost of treating major complications form unsafe abortion is ~$553 million
  • There are currently 428,000 foster children in the US. The adoption rate over the last 5 years had held steady at 50,000 children.
  • 25,000 children leave foster care every year with no guardianship of any kind

And my last thought: Being pro-choice does not mean a person is pro-abortion. It means that the choices you make for your own body are none of my business. (and until a fetus is delivered it is part of a woman's body. Full stop.)

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1 hour ago, WYO1016 said:

In either case, in a state such as Alabama she would be REQUIRED to carry that fetus to term. 9 months of reminding her of either her mistake or the most awful thing that had ever happened to her. No one can convince me that ANY type of law that requires that is for the good of the people in any way shape or form.

This is incorrect

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21 minutes ago, pokebball said:

This is incorrect

Which part? Here is the actual text of the bill:

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Section 4. (a) It shall be unlawful for any person to intentionally perform or attempt to perform an abortion except as provided for by subsection (b).

(b) An abortion shall be permitted if an attending physician licensed in Alabama determines that an abortion is necessary in order to prevent a serious health risk to the unborn child's mother. Except in the case of a medical emergency as defined herein, the physician's determination shall be confirmed in writing by a second physician licensed in Alabama. The confirmation shall occur within 180 days after the abortion is completed and shall be prima facie evidence for a permitted abortion.

Section 5. No woman upon whom an abortion is performed or attempted to be performed shall be criminally or civilly liable. Furthermore, no physician confirming the serious health risk to the child's mother shall be criminally or civilly liable for those actions.

Section 6. (a) An abortion performed in violation of this act is a Class A felony.

-----------------

Notice there are no exceptions for anything except the health of the mother, and if any medical professional performs one for any other reason it is a Class A felony. The sentencing requirements for a Class A felony in Alabama are no less than 10 years and no more than life or 99 years.

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35 minutes ago, WYO1016 said:

Which part? Here is the actual text of the bill:

-----------------

Section 4. (a) It shall be unlawful for any person to intentionally perform or attempt to perform an abortion except as provided for by subsection (b).

(b) An abortion shall be permitted if an attending physician licensed in Alabama determines that an abortion is necessary in order to prevent a serious health risk to the unborn child's mother. Except in the case of a medical emergency as defined herein, the physician's determination shall be confirmed in writing by a second physician licensed in Alabama. The confirmation shall occur within 180 days after the abortion is completed and shall be prima facie evidence for a permitted abortion.

Section 5. No woman upon whom an abortion is performed or attempted to be performed shall be criminally or civilly liable. Furthermore, no physician confirming the serious health risk to the child's mother shall be criminally or civilly liable for those actions.

Section 6. (a) An abortion performed in violation of this act is a Class A felony.

-----------------

Notice there are no exceptions for anything except the health of the mother, and if any medical professional performs one for any other reason it is a Class A felony. The sentencing requirements for a Class A felony in Alabama are no less than 10 years and no more than life or 99 years.

Restrictions begins after 6wks.  If my wife was raped I guarantee you that we'd make sure she wasn't pregnant immediately.  That said, the bill should have this exception.

The felony is on the doctor, not the woman.  She isn't forced to carry.

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47 minutes ago, pokebball said:

Restrictions begins after 6wks.  If my wife was raped I guarantee you that we'd make sure she wasn't pregnant immediately.  That said, the bill should have this exception.

The felony is on the doctor, not the woman.  She isn't forced to carry.

Yeah she could go out of state for now...but the restrictions don't begin at 6 weeks according to the law:

Quote

(7) UNBORN CHILD, CHILD or PERSON. A human being, specifically including an unborn child in utero at any stage of development, regardless of viability.

Editted to add:

Also - since it gives the unborn "personhood" - the rapist could probably file a lawsuit for wrongful death against the wife in Alabama in this theoretical pregnancy of @WYO1016 even if she went out of state for the abortion. What a world that would be.

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9 minutes ago, bsu_alum9 said:

Yeah she could go out of state for now...but the restrictions don't begin at 6 weeks according to the law:

 

You are correct.  George's new law is 6 weeks.

And if she found a provider, she can have one in Alabama.

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8 hours ago, pokebball said:

Restrictions begins after 6wks.  If my wife was raped I guarantee you that we'd make sure she wasn't pregnant immediately.  That said, the bill should have this exception.

The felony is on the doctor, not the woman.  She isn't forced to carry.

No it begins at conception.  And watch out for unintended consequences as doctors stop treating pregnant women for fear of being charged.   These have happened in other countries.  

Like Alabama, doctors in Nicaragua also face prison time for performing abortions -- up to six years for performing abortions, according to Human Rights Watch. They can also be disqualified from practicing medicine for two to 10 years. 
 
That law has been shown to influence basic health care decisions: Amnesty Internationalhas reported that doctors are frightened to treat pregnant woman for illnesses such as cancer, malaria, HIV/AIDS or cardiac emergencies where treatment could cause injury or death to the fetus.
 
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On 5/16/2019 at 9:27 AM, pokebball said:

While I agree with your first paragraph, I got a laugh out of your second, when you opined on God's intellect.

Science clearly supports that life exists before when our laws says it does.  And our constitution does strictly allow the freedom to express our religions.

Legislators in Alabama, and the Governor, were largely elected because of their pro life positions (call it scientific pro life positions if that makes you feel better).

Yes sperm is living and millions are needlessly killed daily.   End sperm abortion!  Those hairy fisted masterbaters will burn!   How can anyone believe life only begins at conception? 

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1 hour ago, Akkula said:

Yes sperm is living and millions are needlessly killed daily.   End sperm abortion!  Those hairy fisted masterbaters will burn!   How can anyone believe life only begins at conception? 

This is what authoritarians do.

They decide the value of humans.

They decide using science that some people are better and deserve more.  (Eugenics)

They decide that some of those people are damaging to society in some way.  They create Auschwitz and get rid of them.

They decide that some are inconvenient and in some authoritarian cultures, putting a baby or sending elders out to be exposed to weather is considered normal.

These things expand, first it starts with Jews, then it becomes acceptable to include the gypsies and maybe the catholics, or we get those with black skin included.  You never know when you are next.

Akkula and democrats are starting with those who have no vote and have no way to fight back.   No surprise as this whole process is the act of only the most miserable, narcissistic and depraved individuals.

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I think most here agree that abortions shouldn’t be completely outlawed.  There are reasons where it should be allowed - and although I am personally morally opposed to it, that includes for convenience.  There needs to be a line drawn in the sand though for when it’s appropriate.  If it’s for convenience then the cutoff needs to be much earlier than it should be for instances of rape/incest/health (which should have minimal restrictions IMO).  This along with better sex education or things like that and awareness and maybe better access to birth control would help (not the end all be all solution as folks still need to make an effort and choose to use it which still won’t happen as much as some like to argue).

Alabama goes too far in one direction.  New York goes too far in the other.  There has to be a common sense middle ground that MOST folks can agree on or at least tolerate.

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On 5/16/2019 at 11:09 AM, soupslam1 said:

I have a niece that had three abortions in college. She didn’t want to take birth control because it made her feel funny. I would agree that the vast amount of abortions are done for convenience and have no bearing on the mothers health, rape, or incest. 

Are you kidding us? It "made her feel funny?" What did? Being on "THE pill?" Taking a morning after pill? Having an IUD implanted? Or how 'bout just using the old time rhythm method? Or should that girl just be the answer to the prayers of thousands of infertile couples wanting to adopt?

I'm very much on the fence about abortion but maybe some women should wear a chastity belt. :rolleyes:

Boom goes the dynamite.

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6 hours ago, bluerules009 said:

This is what authoritarians do.

They decide the value of humans.

They decide using science that some people are better and deserve more.  (Eugenics)

They decide that some of those people are damaging to society in some way.  They create Auschwitz and get rid of them.

They decide that some are inconvenient and in some authoritarian cultures, putting a baby or sending elders out to be exposed to weather is considered normal.

These things expand, first it starts with Jews, then it becomes acceptable to include the gypsies and maybe the catholics, or we get those with black skin included.  You never know when you are next.

Akkula and democrats are starting with those who have no vote and have no way to fight back.   No surprise as this whole process is the act of only the most miserable, narcissistic and depraved individuals.

This is an extremely slanted take that conservatives have taken, using black babies as mere pawns in their game.  Not many people give a shit about the race of a baby, yet you would think this is a crusade to save them.  You don't need to utilize that tactic to get your point across.

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On 5/16/2019 at 1:42 PM, pokebball said:

While I agree with this statement, it's interesting to note that black and brown people are more pro life than white people.

I'll buy the "brown" assertion but only because such a high percentage of Latinos are Catholic. But black? You'll have to provide a study to persuade me of that.

I'll add that I'm sure you mean well but I sense you're trying to be very philosophical/moral/ethical or whatever term you want to apply to it about something that is such a complex issue that I long ago decided I could not take a position on the propriety of abortion beyond the first trimester. However, this column reflects my wife's position on the issue and I think that if I was a woman, I would likely feel the same: https://www.latimes.com/local/abcarian/la-me-abcarian-abortion-alabama-20190516-story.html

FWIW, I definitely disagree with Rick Santorum. I've heard the guy as a talking head on CNN dozens of times and never had strong feelings one way or another about what he said but was frankly shocked to hear his sanctimonious support for the Alabama law the other night.

Boom goes the dynamite.

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58 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

Alabama goes too far in one direction.  New York goes too far in the other.  There has to be a common sense middle ground that MOST folks can agree on or at least tolerate.

You mean like the standard adopted under Roe v. Wade which seems to have been working fine for 45 or so years?

Boom goes the dynamite.

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If you don’t have unprotected sex you won’t get a woman pregnant.  

thelawlorfaithful, on 31 Dec 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:One of the rules I live by: never underestimate a man in a dandy looking sweater

 

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