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sebasour

Alabama Abortion Ban

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5 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

Except my position is supported by the published studies and yours is nonsensical and has no basis in reality.  Nowhere in the published and linked studies above will you find anything that suggests that the vast majority of abortions are committed for non-convenience reasons.  Quite the opposite.   

Again, you are attributing a statement to me that I never made. That's happened a couple time now. Not sure why someone would feel the need to do that. But now that this fun back and forth has turned into personal insults, I agree with you from a couple posts back - leave it at that and let other people take a look if they want. 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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9 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

Again, you are attributing a statement to me that I never made. That's happened a couple time now. Not sure why someone would feel the need to do that. But now that this fun back and forth has turned into personal insults, I agree with you from a couple posts back - leave it at that and let other people take a look if they want. 

You never claimed that there’s nothing to support the notion that the majority of abortions are committed out of convenience?  You never tried to make the case that the published studies are flawed?  :blink:

Maybe the thousands of women that completed the questionnaires or interviews were all just lying about their reasons for the abortion?  Throws the empathy bit out the window don’t you think?

Maybe the state of FL is lying about it all too?

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1 minute ago, NorCalCoug said:

You never claimed that there’s nothing to support the notion that the majority of abortions are committed out of convenience?  You never tried to make the case that the published studies are flawed?  :blink:

Maybe the thousands of women that complete the questionnaires or interviews were all just lying about their reasons for the abortion?  

I never said "organizations like the Guttmacher Institute publish and share studies and analyses they don’t believe in all the time" or "the vast majority of abortions are committed for non-convenience reasons."

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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I actually owe you an apology @smltwnrckr...  After reviewing the thread you didn’t make the claim that there are no statistics to support that most abortions are out of convenience.  That claim was made by @renoskier.  Well, suffice to say he’s full of shit.  You just ran to his defense trying unsuccessfully to undermine the studies that refute his idiotic claim.

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1 minute ago, smltwnrckr said:

I never said "organizations like the Guttmacher Institute publish and share studies and analyses they don’t believe in all the time" or "the vast majority of abortions are committed for non-convenience reasons."

You’re right, wasn’t your claim.  Again, apologies. 

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9 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

I actually owe you an apology @smltwnrckr...  After reviewing the thread you didn’t make the claim that there are no statistics to support that most abortions are out of convenience.  That claim was made by @renoskier.  Well, suffice to say he’s full of shit.  You just ran to his defense trying unsuccessfully to undermine the studies that refute his idiotic claim.

Now, you're misstating my claim. I said there's no statistics that prove that most "late term" abortions are out of convenience.

I'll concede, and never disputed, that overall, most abortions are done "out of convenience". 

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Just now, renoskier said:

Now, you're misstating my claim. I said there's no statistics that prove that most "late term" abortions are out of convenience.

I'll concede, and never disputed, that overall, most abortions are done "out of convenience". 

There are.  You just don’t want to believe them.

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2 minutes ago, renoskier said:

You believe what you want to believe.

As do you.  Ignorance is bliss.  You just keep thinking that the 10K+ late stage aborted babies each year are all done due to extremely EXTREMELY rare health circumstances rather than convenience.  Stupid...

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1 hour ago, smltwnrckr said:

You restated things I did't dispute, and then stated that I was wrong.

If you have a problem with the thing I'm actually arguing about, you should send an e-mail or give a call to Joerg Dreweke from the Guttmacher Institute and Diana Greene Foster who put together the Turnaway study who have both said what I'm saying. Go tell them they are wrong. 

He has destroyed you, you are just not honest.

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4 hours ago, NorCalCoug said:

As do you.  Ignorance is bliss.  You just keep thinking that the 10K+ late stage aborted babies each year are all done due to extremely EXTREMELY rare health circumstances rather than convenience.  Stupid...

So nocal, do want to ban all abortions or just "late term", say after 20 weeks?

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20 hours ago, NorCalCoug said:

The vast majority of abortions no matter the stage are for convenience.

First of all, let's define the word convenience:

 

Quote

 

convenience

[ kuhn-veen-yuhns ]

noun

anything that saves or simplifies work, adds to one's ease or comfort, etc., as an appliance, utensil,or the like.

 

 
Now that we've got that out of the way, let's reflect on personal experiences. I can tell you that the women I've known that have gotten abortions have not done it to add to their ease or comfort. Every single instance I've seen of a woman doing this has had a profound effect on them for the rest of their lives. They think about it daily. They wonder if they made the right choice. They wonder what may have been, and how they would have dealt with it. It can often lead to depression, drug and alcohol abuse, and self harm. Believe me when I say that the woman who just goes in to get an abortion because it's "the easy way out" is the exception, not the rule.
 
As men we will never fully understand the feeling of losing a child, by choice or naturally. Yes, we can be affected, but not to the extent of the woman who quite literally lost a part of herself. We can also never understand the circumstances behind every woman who walks down that path. Maybe the father is a married man who was having an affair with them. Maybe they were raped. Maybe a child would plunge them into a cycle of poverty that is near impossible to break from. Maybe they have physical characteristics in their reproductive system that makes pregnancy a life threatening condition. Maybe they do not have the loving nature needed to be a good mother. There are a million reasons a woman could have behind their decision. They have to live with that decision, much like anyone would have to live with any decision they make. Legislating against allowing them to make a decision on what to do with their own lives is akin to making laws forcing you to pray to Allah. It's not what you believe, but it's what the people in power decided you should believe.
 
These laws are fundamentally against what makes this country great; the ability to choose your own path. What you believe my path should be and what I decide my path will be are most likely very different, but my life is my own, and you do not have any say in how I live it.
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1 hour ago, WYO1016 said:

First of all, let's define the word convenience:

 

 
Now that we've got that out of the way, let's reflect on personal experiences. I can tell you that the women I've known that have gotten abortions have not done it to add to their ease or comfort. Every single instance I've seen of a woman doing this has had a profound effect on them for the rest of their lives. They think about it daily. They wonder if they made the right choice. They wonder what may have been, and how they would have dealt with it. It can often lead to depression, drug and alcohol abuse, and self harm. Believe me when I say that the woman who just goes in to get an abortion because it's "the easy way out" is the exception, not the rule.
 
As men we will never fully understand the feeling of losing a child, by choice or naturally. Yes, we can be affected, but not to the extent of the woman who quite literally lost a part of herself. We can also never understand the circumstances behind every woman who walks down that path. Maybe the father is a married man who was having an affair with them. Maybe they were raped. Maybe a child would plunge them into a cycle of poverty that is near impossible to break from. Maybe they have physical characteristics in their reproductive system that makes pregnancy a life threatening condition. Maybe they do not have the loving nature needed to be a good mother. There are a million reasons a woman could have behind their decision. They have to live with that decision, much like anyone would have to live with any decision they make. Legislating against allowing them to make a decision on what to do with their own lives is akin to making laws forcing you to pray to Allah. It's not what you believe, but it's what the people in power decided you should believe.
 
These laws are fundamentally against what makes this country great; the ability to choose your own path. What you believe my path should be and what I decide my path will be are most likely very different, but my life is my own, and you do not have any say in how I live it.

 

Except you would not have a path to choose if your mother had aborted you. And there is the option of adoption where couples are carefully evaluated for their suitability to raise a child and will take care of all costs. 

My wife and I have two wonderful adopted kids. Growing up, we were very open with them regarding the circumstances and who their natural parents were. Over the years we corresponded and they have met their natural parents and developed a friendly relationship with them. None of that would have occurred if they had chose abortion. 

There are thousands of loving couples that wait years to adopt. It is a gift to give life. 

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1 minute ago, soupslam1 said:

 

Except you would not have a path to choose if your mother had aborted you. And there is the option of adoption where couples are carefully evaluated for their suitability to raise a child and will take care of all costs. 

My wife and I have two wonderful adopted kids. Growing up, we were very open with them regarding the circumstances and who their natural parents were. Over the years we corresponded and they have met their natural parents and developed a friendly relationship with them. None of that would have occurred if they had chose abortion. 

There are thousands of loving couples that have waited years to adopt. It is a gift to give life. 

I wholeheartedly agree that adoption is a wonderful thing. I'm not aware of the circumstances of how one goes about adopting a child, but I am aware that the numbers paint the picture of it not being an easy process.

  • There are currently 428,000 foster children in the US. The adoption rate over the last 5 years had held steady at 50,000 children.
  • 25,000 children leave foster care every year with no guardianship of any kind

If you stop the process of creating something then yes, you will never know what could have been. That does not mean that you tell the creator of that item that they must finish their creation or be jailed.

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10 minutes ago, WYO1016 said:

I wholeheartedly agree that adoption is a wonderful thing. I'm not aware of the circumstances of how one goes about adopting a child, but I am aware that the numbers paint the picture of it not being an easy process.

  • There are currently 428,000 foster children in the US. The adoption rate over the last 5 years had held steady at 50,000 children.
  • 25,000 children leave foster care every year with no guardianship of any kind

If you stop the process of creating something then yes, you will never know what could have been. That does not mean that you tell the creator of that item that they must finish their creation or be jailed.

You seem to be arguing for abortion instead of giving the gift of life. I’m pointing out adoption is an option that usually ends well for all parties involved especially for the child. And I haven’t heard of any mother’s being jailed for an abortion in a very long time. 

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17 minutes ago, soupslam1 said:

You seem to be arguing for abortion instead of giving the gift of life. I’m pointing out adoption is an option that usually ends well for all parties involved especially for the child. And I haven’t heard of any mother’s being jailed for an abortion in a very long time. 

I am definitely not arguing for abortion. I'm arguing for the freedom of choice. You're absolutely correct; life is a gift. That being said, should someone be forced to give a gift? I understand that people who adopt are incredibly blessed to be able to be given that gift. It sounds to me that you're arguing that one should be obligated to give a gift to someone that wants it.

To generalize: If I want something and someone is kind enough to gift it to me it makes me incredibly lucky. If I don't get what I want it doesn't mean that a person who had the means to give me that gift is a bad person for not doing so. It also doesn't mean that just because they are able to give me that gift that they should be forced to do so.

In my analogy above I misstated that one could be jailed for refusing to finish their creation. The correct analogy is that they would be forced to finish said creation because the people that make the tools that would allow them to stop would be jailed if they give those tools to the creator.

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2 hours ago, WYO1016 said:

These laws are fundamentally against what makes this country great; the ability to choose your own path. What you believe my path should be and what I decide my path will be are most likely very different, but my life is my own, and you do not have any say in how I live it.

This ignores the "path" of the baby.  Your own argument hangs you, in my opinion.

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1 minute ago, pokebball said:

This ignores the "path" of the baby.  Your own argument hangs you, in my opinion.

Not to mention he’s conflating reasons for the choice with the postmortem impacts of that choice to say that the choice itself is not “convenient”.  I don’t buy that argument one bit.

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