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pokebball

Oh Bernie

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https://www.huffpost.com/entry/2020-census-prison-population_n_5a7cb966e4b044b3821b0507

Prisoners are counted where they are imprisoned in census and when drawing up congressional districts. This practice should either be stopped, or the prisoners votes should count, living near a prison should not give people greater political influence and voting power.

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4 hours ago, sebasour said:

I'm really not trying to be a smartass. I'm just trying to understand what the negative consequences are and why holding this position is such a gaffe for Bernie?

 

It seems crazy at first, but when you actually think about it, it's hard to come up with a reason why this would be a terrible thing

So, I've asked numerous times now for reasons why we should allow convicted criminals to vote and have yet to see one.  So I'll start with a reason why I don't think we should.  In addition to countering this reason, I'd appreciate your response include a reason for allowing a convicted criminal to vote.

One reason why I don't think we should is that I consider the right to vote to be a privilege.  A person that has committed a crime against society loses his/her freedom by being incarcerated.  A loss of that freedom comes with a loss of the privilege to vote.

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3 hours ago, happycamper said:

Sure. Any citizen should have the vote. Those in prison are inarguably more affected by government than anyone else. For that matter, I have no idea how "in prison" would correlate with "poor voting" (whatever that would even mean). 

Incarcerated citizens have lost their freedom.  They have committed a crime against society leading to that incarceration and loss of freedom.  They are being punished for those crimes.  Part of that punishment should be their loss of voting privileges.

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9 hours ago, happycamper said:

in prison

Dude, don't be stupid. There are lots of close elections. For example, Harry Reid beat John Ensign for the NV senate seat by only 400 votes. 

And it has a lot to do with principle. Certain behavior results in the loss of certain rights. Voting absolutely should be. There are lots and lots of liberal Dems that are criticizing Sanders for this, and you think you're a moderate. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!

kat.jpg

 

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5 hours ago, Mano said:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/2020-census-prison-population_n_5a7cb966e4b044b3821b0507

Prisoners are counted where they are imprisoned in census and when drawing up congressional districts. This practice should either be stopped, or the prisoners votes should count, living near a prison should not give people greater political influence and voting power.

That is a good reason right there just to let them vote.  

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My reason is that they're Americans and adults.

 

Voting rights seems to be a fairly arbitrary thing to add to a punishment, does it not? You seem to be arguing that we should restrict their voting rights because that's what we've always done.

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58 minutes ago, sebasour said:

 

My reason is that they're Americans and adults.

 

Voting rights seems to be a fairly arbitrary thing to add to a punishment, does it not? You seem to be arguing that we should restrict their voting rights because that's what we've always done.

I watched the town hall when that question was asked.  The question was basically, "Do you believe XYZ (Insert any horrible American citizen) should be allowed to vote?"

Bernie should have just said, "I strongly believe that ALL US CITIZENS SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO VOTE!"  Thunderous applause and move on.   

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15 hours ago, Mano said:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/2020-census-prison-population_n_5a7cb966e4b044b3821b0507

Prisoners are counted where they are imprisoned in census and when drawing up congressional districts. This practice should either be stopped

Full stop.

In fact, the entire way districts are drawn up is disgusting and should be scrapped and a new system agreed upon on a bipartisan level should be applied. The game is so crooked it is a joke. 

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15 hours ago, pokebball said:

Incarcerated citizens have lost their freedom.  They have committed a crime against society leading to that incarceration and loss of freedom.  They are being punished for those crimes.  Part of that punishment should be their loss of voting privileges.

I disagree with that. Voting is not a privilege. It is a right and a duty. Otherwise the arm of law enforcement becomes a political tool.

13 hours ago, Nevada Convert said:

Dude, don't be stupid. There are lots of close elections. For example, Harry Reid beat John Ensign for the NV senate seat by only 400 votes. 

And it has a lot to do with principle. Certain behavior results in the loss of certain rights. Voting absolutely should be. There are lots and lots of liberal Dems that are criticizing Sanders for this, and you think you're a moderate. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!

Sure, there are close elections. What exactly do you think the incarcerated will swing? Do you think people in prison would manage to get their crimes legalized - if they even think they should be legalized in the first place?

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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48 minutes ago, RogueStout said:

Full stop.

In fact, the entire way districts are drawn up is disgusting and should be scrapped and a new system agreed upon on a bipartisan level should be applied. The game is so crooked it is a joke. 

Multi member districts FTW.

I feel like the most neutral way would just be divide each nation in stripes running east-west. As soon as you hit the population limit... another seat to the south. boom. impossible to gerrymander and the political map would look hilarious. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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2 hours ago, happycamper said:

I disagree with that. Voting is not a privilege. It is a right and a duty. Otherwise the arm of law enforcement becomes a political tool.

 

I found a cut & paste that presents this position much better than I.

While crime is perpetrated by individuals, the impact is on society as a whole. Crime is expensive, costing taxpayers–and the government–billions of dollars per year. Additionally, the amount of time and resources allocated to court trials takes away from time spent towards community productivity, and none of this takes into account the fact that crime is hurtful to its victims. As such, it doesn’t seem right that felons who have such an extensive negative impact on the social order should be allowed to be part of the decision-making process that contributes to that order. In violating the social contract by committing crime, felons are giving up their privilege of participating in the forming of societal policy.

The threat of jail time isn’t necessarily enough of a deterrent to those with a criminal streak, as evidenced by the number of repeat offenders who return to jail (45% within five years of release). By definition, jail is a loss of freedom, and this threat is enhanced when it includes the loss of democratic rights as well. While some may argue that felons are mostly indifferent to losing the right to vote, the message is a societal one as much as a personal one: Criminal behavior is intolerable, and losing your most basic rights is fair game as a punishment.

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7 hours ago, sebasour said:

 

My reason is that they're Americans and adults.

 

Voting rights seems to be a fairly arbitrary thing to add to a punishment, does it not? You seem to be arguing that we should restrict their voting rights because that's what we've always done.

See my response to Happy.  It definitely goes beyond just continuing "what we've always done"

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2 minutes ago, pokebball said:

I found a cut & paste that presents this position much better than I.

While crime is perpetrated by individuals, the impact is on society as a whole. Crime is expensive, costing taxpayers–and the government–billions of dollars per year. Additionally, the amount of time and resources allocated to court trials takes away from time spent towards community productivity, and none of this takes into account the fact that crime is hurtful to its victims. As such, it doesn’t seem right that felons who have such an extensive negative impact on the social order should be allowed to be part of the decision-making process that contributes to that order. In violating the social contract by committing crime, felons are giving up their privilege of participating in the forming of societal policy.

Dumb. Doesn't address using felonies as a political tool, doesn't address mass disenfranchisement, doesn't address the historical use of law enforcement as racial segregation enforcement, doesn't address disparities in conviction rates for the same crime, doesn't address rehabilitation. Also completely ignores the fact that the "extensive negative impact on the social order" of our mass incarceration has been enormous; by that logic should DAs be barred from voting? 

It isn't a privilege to form societal policy. It's a duty. We're all stuck with each other, this kind of half-baked logic of excluding people from society despite living with them is antithetical to me. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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Voting rights are generally restored after prison.  It looks like you can vote from prison in Maine and Vermont.  

https://www.nonprofitvote.org/voting-in-your-state/special-circumstances/voting-as-an-ex-offender/

Voting Rights for Ex-Offenders by State

(updated 11/20/18) In all but two states, voting-age citizens convicted of a felony are barred from voting for some period of time. Laws vary in each state. While many states restore voting rights to individuals automatically after they exit jail or prison, others continue the bar on voting even while on probation or parole. Some even permanently disenfranchise people with a past conviction or require they petition the government to have their right restored.

This is a short, up-to-date state guide to voting for people with past felonies. For more, visit the resources on the right.

Overview

Voting rights retained while in prison for a felony conviction in:

Maine and Vermont.

       

 

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21 hours ago, Mano said:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/2020-census-prison-population_n_5a7cb966e4b044b3821b0507

Prisoners are counted where they are imprisoned in census and when drawing up congressional districts. This practice should either be stopped, or the prisoners votes should count, living near a prison should not give people greater political influence and voting power.

 

15 hours ago, Akkula said:

That is a good reason right there just to let them vote.  

Illegal immigrants count when drawing up congressional districts. Should they be allowed to vote too?

thelawlorfaithful, on 31 Dec 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:One of the rules I live by: never underestimate a man in a dandy looking sweater

 

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11 minutes ago, alum93 said:

When they become citizens, yes.  

That wasn’t my question.  My question was since they’re counted in the census now and used for drawing up congressional districts should they be allowed to vote?  

thelawlorfaithful, on 31 Dec 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:One of the rules I live by: never underestimate a man in a dandy looking sweater

 

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1 minute ago, mugtang said:

That wasn’t my question.  My question was since they’re counted in the census now and used for drawing up congressional districts should they be allowed to vote?  

I got it, i just felt like chiming in.  I think allowing prisoners incarcerated for non-violent crimes would be a nice compromise between both sides.  

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