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Illegal Immigrants to Sanctuary Cities.

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20 hours ago, Rebelbacker said:

Are you kidding me? Dems have called republicans racist, sexist homophobes for years. The dems have championed identity politics based solely on a groups race, gender or sexual preference. 

Just the dems?

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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23 hours ago, Rebelbacker said:

It really is an interesting thing. Conservatives think of people as individuals. Dems think of people only in groups. 

As illustrated here by you thinking of the Dems as individuals, right?

 

 

I'm a desperate man
Send lawyers, guns, and money
The shit has hit the fan

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1 hour ago, alum93 said:

I agree it's good to know where people stand.  Much like white men, no they aren't all saints.  No group is so i don't see your point.  Pretty much everything you state, from free handouts to refusing to assimilate is wrong.  Notice i didn't say lie, because it could just be ignorance or you live in an area that doesn't allow you to interact and you are relying on the Fox News/Breitbart's of the world.  Either way,  long term our side, the one that believe in the more immigrants the better,  won.  The numbers will continue to grow, as they have for decades and decades, and our country will reap the benefits.  Diversity is a great thing, not something to be scared of like the red hat folks in the south have been memorized with chants and simple slogans.  It's unfortunate they have bought into the Trump rhetoric without knowing any better, but he will be gone soon enough.  We have absorbed the current estimated 10M+ and our country is doing great, just like it was for 8 straight years under Obama.  We can easily absorb millions more.  Lastly, we don't run massive deficits because of illegal immigrants by the way.  We do because of greed, spending priorities, and a general lack of any fiscal responsibility in both parties. 

PS.  Our country isn't "full".  Surely even the red hats know better.  Just another in a long line of ignorant quotes from our "fearless" leader.

I don't think "full" has anything to do with it.  Our federal govt is in some serious debt and I don't think it has the budget to provide the necessary infrastructure to handle too much.  We need to be smart in our immigration systems and processes so that we don't overload existing infrastructure.  Maintaining that infrastructure is adding to our deficit.  I'm not sure why you think it isn't.  It's important to note that I strongly disagree with that statement.  If this was true, these sanctuary cities would have buses at the border picking the immigrants up.

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1 hour ago, alum93 said:

I agree it's good to know where people stand.  Much like white men, no they aren't all saints.  No group is so i don't see your point.  Pretty much everything you state, from free handouts to refusing to assimilate is wrong.  Notice i didn't say lie, because it could just be ignorance or you live in an area that doesn't allow you to interact and you are relying on the Fox News/Breitbart's of the world.  Either way,  long term our side, the one that believe in the more immigrants the better,  won.  The numbers will continue to grow, as they have for decades and decades, and our country will reap the benefits.  Diversity is a great thing, not something to be scared of like the red hat folks in the south have been memorized with chants and simple slogans.  It's unfortunate they have bought into the Trump rhetoric without knowing any better, but he will be gone soon enough.  We have absorbed the current estimated 10M+ and our country is doing great, just like it was for 8 straight years under Obama.  We can easily absorb millions more.  Lastly, we don't run massive deficits because of illegal immigrants by the way.  We do because of greed, spending priorities, and a general lack of any fiscal responsibility in both parties. 

PS.  Our country isn't "full".  Surely even the red hats know better.  Just another in a long line of ignorant quotes from our "fearless" leader.

Good post.

I'm going to call the bold part: "alum93's razor"  Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by ignorance".

It's an improved Hanlon's razor because ignorance is much more common than stupidity.

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On 4/15/2019 at 6:14 PM, DoubleBlueGold said:

Something someone who doesn't know about Lake Tahoe, the Sierra Nevada range, Big Bear, Yosemite etc. would say. Spoken like a true ignoramus.

Doesn't all of inland California look like Fresno, or Rancho Cucamonga?  - Both Shitholes

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1 hour ago, pokebball said:

I don't think "full" has anything to do with it.  Our federal govt is in some serious debt and I don't think it has the budget to provide the necessary infrastructure to handle too much.  We need to be smart in our immigration systems and processes so that we don't overload existing infrastructure.  Maintaining that infrastructure is adding to our deficit.  I'm not sure why you think it isn't.  It's important to note that I strongly disagree with that statement.  If this was true, these sanctuary cities would have buses at the border picking the immigrants up.

The "full" comment was just a reference to Trump and the fact that no matter how crazy his statements are,  he has a loyal group that will follow right along.

With respect to the deficit, i would expect we can go tit for tat on studies.  Here is just one link and i pulled out a couple of paragraphs.  I am sure there are others that state just the opposite.  I agree that it isn't easy to quantify, but i don't think blanket statements about adding to our deficit are any more accurate than saying they have a net positive impact.  Here is the link.  Feel free to read away.  Plenty of data and i bet Fox News would have my head spinning with the massive negative impact with a lineup of experts and studies at a moments notice to contradict everything below...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_illegal_immigrants_in_the_United_States

The economic impact of illegal immigrants in the United States is challenging to measure, and politically contentious. The scarcity of reliable statistics leaves room for many methods of study, leading to diverse conclusions.[1]

There were approximately 11.3 million unauthorized immigrants in the U.S. in 2016, roughly unchanged from the prior year but well below the 12.2 million peak in 2007. There were an estimated 8 million unauthorized immigrants in the U.S. civilian workforce in 2016, roughly 5%.[7] The Congressional Budget Office reported in 2007 that "the tax revenues that unauthorized immigrants generate for state and local governments do not offset the total cost of services provided to them" but "in aggregate and over the long term, tax revenues of all types generated by immigrants—both legal and unauthorized—exceed the cost of the services they use."[8] Unauthorized immigrants demand goods and services[9] while an estimated 50 to 75 percent pay taxes.[8] Due to cheaper labor, they contribute to lower prices in the industries where they work, such as agriculture, restaurants, and construction.

Further on down on the page.

Cost-benefit analysis

Aviva Chomsky, a professor at Salem State College, states that "Early studies in California and in the Southwest and in the Southeast...have come to the same conclusions. Immigrants, legal and illegal, are more likely to pay taxes than they are to use public services. Illegal immigrants are not eligible for most public services and live in fear of revealing themselves to government authorities. Households headed by illegal immigrants use less than half the amount of federal services that households headed by documented immigrants or citizens make use of."[41]

National Public Radio (NPR) wrote in 2006: "Supporters of a crackdown argue that the U.S. economy would benefit if illegal immigrants were to leave, because U.S. employers would be forced to raise wages to attract American workers. Critics of this approach say the loss of illegal immigrants would stall the U.S. economy, saying illegal workers do many jobs few native-born Americans will do."[27]

Professor of Law Francine Lipman writes that the belief that illegal migrants are exploiting the US economy and that they cost more in services than they contribute to the economy is "undeniably false".[42] Lipman asserts that "illegal immigrants actually contribute more to public coffers in taxes than they cost in social services" and "contribute to the U.S. economy through their investments and consumption of goods and services; filling of millions of essential worker positions resulting in subsidiary job creation, increased productivity and lower costs of goods and services; and unrequited contributions to Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance programs."

 

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12 minutes ago, alum93 said:

The full comment was just a reference to Trump and the fact that no matter how crazy his statements are,  he has a loyal group that will follow right along.

With respect to the deficit, i would expect we can go tit for tat on studies.  Here is just one link and i pulled out a couple of paragraphs.  I am sure there are others that state just the opposite.  I agree that it isn't easy to quantify, but i don't think blanket statements about adding to our deficit are any more accurate than saying they have a net positive impact.  Here is the link.  Feel free to read away.  Plenty of data and i bet Fox News would have my head spinning with the massive negative impact with a lineup of experts and studies at a moments notice to contradict everything below...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_illegal_immigrants_in_the_United_States

The economic impact of illegal immigrants in the United States is challenging to measure, and politically contentious. The scarcity of reliable statistics leaves room for many methods of study, leading to diverse conclusions.[1]

There were approximately 11.3 million unauthorized immigrants in the U.S. in 2016, roughly unchanged from the prior year but well below the 12.2 million peak in 2007. There were an estimated 8 million unauthorized immigrants in the U.S. civilian workforce in 2016, roughly 5%.[7] The Congressional Budget Office reported in 2007 that "the tax revenues that unauthorized immigrants generate for state and local governments do not offset the total cost of services provided to them" but "in aggregate and over the long term, tax revenues of all types generated by immigrants—both legal and unauthorized—exceed the cost of the services they use."[8] Unauthorized immigrants demand goods and services[9] while an estimated 50 to 75 percent pay taxes.[8] Due to cheaper labor, they contribute to lower prices in the industries where they work, such as agriculture, restaurants, and construction.

Further on down on the page.

Cost-benefit analysis

Aviva Chomsky, a professor at Salem State College, states that "Early studies in California and in the Southwest and in the Southeast...have come to the same conclusions. Immigrants, legal and illegal, are more likely to pay taxes than they are to use public services. Illegal immigrants are not eligible for most public services and live in fear of revealing themselves to government authorities. Households headed by illegal immigrants use less than half the amount of federal services that households headed by documented immigrants or citizens make use of."[41]

National Public Radio (NPR) wrote in 2006: "Supporters of a crackdown argue that the U.S. economy would benefit if illegal immigrants were to leave, because U.S. employers would be forced to raise wages to attract American workers. Critics of this approach say the loss of illegal immigrants would stall the U.S. economy, saying illegal workers do many jobs few native-born Americans will do."[27]

Professor of Law Francine Lipman writes that the belief that illegal migrants are exploiting the US economy and that they cost more in services than they contribute to the economy is "undeniably false".[42] Lipman asserts that "illegal immigrants actually contribute more to public coffers in taxes than they cost in social services" and "contribute to the U.S. economy through their investments and consumption of goods and services; filling of millions of essential worker positions resulting in subsidiary job creation, increased productivity and lower costs of goods and services; and unrequited contributions to Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance programs."

 

I don't disagree with your links.  I think a very important part in your cut and paste, which really speaks to my point, is first this

The economic impact of illegal immigrants in the United States is challenging to measure, and politically contentious. The scarcity of reliable statistics leaves room for many methods of study, leading to diverse conclusions.[1

and this

The Congressional Budget Office reported in 2007 that "the tax revenues that unauthorized immigrants generate for state and local governments do not offset the total cost of services provided to them" but "in aggregate and over the long term, tax revenues of all types generated by immigrants—both legal and unauthorized—exceed the cost of the services they use.

This second point is the bigger issue in my opinion.  State and especially local govts can't provide the infrastructure.  Your cut and past acknowledges this.

The World Needs More Cowboys!

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Just now, pokebball said:

I don't disagree with your links.  I think a very important part in your cut and paste, which really speaks to my point, is first this

The economic impact of illegal immigrants in the United States is challenging to measure, and politically contentious. The scarcity of reliable statistics leaves room for many methods of study, leading to diverse conclusions.[1

and this

The Congressional Budget Office reported in 2007 that "the tax revenues that unauthorized immigrants generate for state and local governments do not offset the total cost of services provided to them" but "in aggregate and over the long term, tax revenues of all types generated by immigrants—both legal and unauthorized—exceed the cost of the services they use.

This second point is the bigger issue in my opinion.  State and especially local govts can't provide the infrastructure.  You cut and past acknowledges this.

That's exactly why i pasted that, to acknowledge the complexity.   Otherwise i would have just cherry picked the parts that support my own thoughts :-)

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3 minutes ago, sandiegopete said:

How many illegals from Russia have been deported in the past 2 years?  Anybody know?

13 Russians have been indicted, right?  How many Russians were indicted under previous administrations?

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9 minutes ago, pokebball said:

13 Russians have been indicted, right?  How many Russians were indicted under previous administrations?

Those were illegal residents of the United States?  I don't think so.  I think you are referring to the Russian hackers who are in St. Petersburg.

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2 minutes ago, sandiegopete said:

Those were illegal residents of the United States?  I don't think so.  I think you are referring to the Russian hackers who are in St. Petersburg.

I was talking about all Russians.  How many have previous admins indicted?

The World Needs More Cowboys!

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2 minutes ago, sandiegopete said:

The issue is how many Russians illegally in the United States have been deported.  You keep trying to change the subject. 

You just answered my question.  Thanks

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11 hours ago, alum93 said:

I agree it's good to know where people stand.  Much like white men, no they aren't all saints.  No group is so i don't see your point.  Pretty much everything you state, from free handouts to refusing to assimilate is wrong.  Notice i didn't say lie, because it could just be ignorance or you live in an area that doesn't allow you to interact and you are relying on the Fox News/Breitbart's of the world.  Either way,  long term our side, the one that believe in the more immigrants the better,  won.  The numbers will continue to grow, as they have for decades and decades, and our country will reap the benefits.  Diversity is a great thing, not something to be scared of like the red hat folks in the south have been memorized with chants and simple slogans.  It's unfortunate they have bought into the Trump rhetoric without knowing any better, but he will be gone soon enough.  We have absorbed the current estimated 10M+ and our country is doing great, just like it was for 8 straight years under Obama.  We can easily absorb millions more.  Lastly, we don't run massive deficits because of illegal immigrants by the way.  We do because of greed, spending priorities, and a general lack of any fiscal responsibility in both parties. 

PS.  Our country isn't "full".  Surely even the red hats know better.  Just another in a long line of ignorant quotes from our "fearless" leader.

There would be 2 billion people across the border in 10 years if you had your way.  This country would be India and given your intelligence you would be in the very poorest caste.

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