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bluerules009

The government shouldn't kill its citizens

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It looks like republicans are finally interested in limiting governments power instead of expanding it on this issue.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/republicans-leading-new-charge-to-end-the-death-penalty-11550572205?mod=hp_listc_pos2

Republican lawmakers in at least six states are pushing to eliminate the death penalty, signaling a broader reversal by many conservatives on an issue that has long been a bedrock for their party.

In Kansas, Kentucky, Missouri, Montana and Wyoming, Republicans in legislatures controlled by their party have sponsored bills this year to end capital punishment, citing fiscal and moral concerns. Some Republicans in New Hampshire, where Democrats dominate the statehouse, are backing a similar proposal. And a GOP lawmaker in Louisiana’s Republican legislature said he plans to introduce a repeal bill in the coming months.

 

Twenty-seven Republican state legislators around the country sponsored anti-death penalty bills last year, compared with just 4 in 2000, according to the advocacy group Conservatives Concerned About the Death Penalty.

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I'm against the death penalty except in cases where someone brazenly kills a bunch of people and there's no question that they did it.

I would still support killing terrorists, mass murderers, and serial killers.

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1 hour ago, NorCalCoug said:

And anyone who murders a child.

Juries aren’t perfect. I’d recommend reading the New Yorker article “Trial by Fire”, about Cameron Todd Willingham, a man who was convicted and executed in Texas for a crime he almost certainly didn’t commit against his 3 children. 

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15 hours ago, CV147 said:

I'm against the death penalty except in cases where someone brazenly kills a bunch of people and there's no question that they did it.

I would still support killing terrorists, mass murderers, and serial killers.

The death penalty is an issue I've flip-flopped on over the years.  My current stance is that I support it.  I don’t buy the “it’s too expensive” argument because I think this is one of those issues that we all pay as a tax and is there if ever needed.  I used to be against the death penalty because there are cases that continue to get overturned when new evidence is discovered (ie DNA) and you see people get rail-roaded by crooked investigators especially in the south).  It seems to be more of a therapeutic relief for the victims families which is why I support it.  Arguments saying it is a deterrent don't hold weight IMO.  Otherwise, we'd see lower murder rates in Texas and Florida vs other states.  I think the bar has to be set high for the amount and types of evidence it takes to put someone to death (ie Murder 1 with scientific evidence).  Where exactly that line is is what I continue to struggle with.  

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15 hours ago, bluerules009 said:

It looks like republicans are finally interested in limiting governments power instead of expanding it on this issue.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/republicans-leading-new-charge-to-end-the-death-penalty-11550572205?mod=hp_listc_pos2

Republican lawmakers in at least six states are pushing to eliminate the death penalty, signaling a broader reversal by many conservatives on an issue that has long been a bedrock for their party.

In Kansas, Kentucky, Missouri, Montana and Wyoming, Republicans in legislatures controlled by their party have sponsored bills this year to end capital punishment, citing fiscal and moral concerns. Some Republicans in New Hampshire, where Democrats dominate the statehouse, are backing a similar proposal. And a GOP lawmaker in Louisiana’s Republican legislature said he plans to introduce a repeal bill in the coming months.

 

Twenty-seven Republican state legislators around the country sponsored anti-death penalty bills last year, compared with just 4 in 2000, according to the advocacy group Conservatives Concerned About the Death Penalty.

I’m totally in favor of capital punishment for the very worst crimes that are DNA and proven with witnesses. Going back to the chair would be fine with me. But there’s just too many innocent people getting put down in general. DNA evidence should have to exist to prove guilt.

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Just now, Nevada Convert said:

I’m totally in favor of capital punishment for the very worst crimes that are DNA and proven with witnesses. Going back to the chair would be fine with me. But there’s just too many innocent people getting put down in general. DNA evidence should have to exist to prove guilt.

How about video showing the act?  That would probably be enough for me.   

How about someone changing their story over and over the course of an investigation?  Then there's technology that shows that they were in fact at the location of the murder (ie cell phone records), fingerprints, eye witness and a confession?  This is the part I struggle with.  These are the cases that are difficult.  

You don't always need DNA to prove guilt.  

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I dislike the death penalty on general principle, and because it has been administered arbitrarily, and with bias. If we do have a death penalty, the bar should be much higher than for conviction. I don't like the state taking lives, but if they do there should be absolutely no doubt of guilt.

I'm a desperate man
Send lawyers, guns, and money
The shit has hit the fan

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There are people that absolutely deserve to die but that doesn't mean we as a society or the government should do it. If it could be shown to work as a deterrent I might come around but it isn't. Its a revenge killing and I don't believe we should be doing that.

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2 hours ago, RamSack said:

How about video showing the act?  That would probably be enough for me.   

How about someone changing their story over and over the course of an investigation?  Then there's technology that shows that they were in fact at the location of the murder (ie cell phone records), fingerprints, eye witness and a confession?  This is the part I struggle with.  These are the cases that are difficult.  

You don't always need DNA to prove guilt.  

I tend to agree with you. Unfortunately the justice system in this country is so phucked up I simply don't trust it enough to warrant capital punishment on circumstantial evidence.  There are too many prosecutors who are motivated by publicity and/or conviction rates, and that cheapens the system.  That doesn't even address the good-ol-boy network of support in law enforcement from police all the way up to the judges.  And don't get me started on the corporate for profit prisons and the deals they've made with governments that ensure they have certain numbers of prisoners housed or penalty fees are awarded.....

I don't know enough about the ramifications in place that address false convictions and forced plea deals, but I think prosecutors and law enforcement should be held to a higher standard and face stiffer penalties for corrupt practices. 

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Let's just call capital punishment out for what it really is, authoritarian state sponsored revenge murder. If a convicted criminal is already incarcerated, there is no need or logical justification in executing him or her. The death penalty is not a crime deterrent nor does it restore or heal a victim. 

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The problem with governments killing people is they kill the wrong people.  Every government system ever created is fraught with incompetence.  No amount of evidence is enough to ever be 100% sure someone is guilty.  DNA evidence just generally proves someone was there and doesn't prove they did anything.   Not to mention DNA evidence can be planted.   Eyewitness testimony, video of an event are all proven to be unreliable.  Not to mention people lie, witnesses lie, prosecutors lie, judges lie, police officers lie, they can't be trusted to implement something that permanent.

Make them break big rocks into little rocks, put them on a chain gang, make them miserable for the rest of their life.   Government should not kill its citizens.

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1 hour ago, bluerules009 said:

The problem with governments killing people is they kill the wrong people.  Every government system ever created is fraught with incompetence.  No amount of evidence is enough to ever be 100% sure someone is guilty.  DNA evidence just generally proves someone was there and doesn't prove they did anything.   Not to mention DNA evidence can be planted.   Eyewitness testimony, video of an event are all proven to be unreliable.  Not to mention people lie, witnesses lie, prosecutors lie, judges lie, police officers lie, they can't be trusted to implement something that permanent.

Make them break big rocks into little rocks, put them on a chain gang, make them miserable for the rest of their life.   Government should not kill its citizens.

What about some serial killers who lead investigators to burial sites, confess to murders giving enough details to close cold cases and have non-circumstantial evidence linking them to the crime?  Or what about the Timothy McVeigh's who confess and outline the plan enough that it is impossible that they were not involved?  Or the Boston Bombers who had videotape evidence of their crimes?

Or what about those apprehended at the scene of a crime with the weapon in hand that killed, etc.

I agree with you on cases too often prosecuted with flimsy evidence and think the death penalty should never be instituted in cases where there can be any doubt.  The death penalty should only be used in the most extreme cases, and only when the evidence is beyond a reasonable doubt.  A term that should be far stricter than it has been applied. 

It shouldn't be about revenge, or as a possible deterrent.  It should be about punishing those who commit abhorrent acts so heinous that the society shouldn't house and pay for them to live out their natural lives, or give them the faintest opportunity to somehow become free to commit more heinous acts such as in a prison break, disaster, or some kind of bureaucratic screw up.

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10 minutes ago, Boise fan said:

What about some serial killers who lead investigators to burial sites, confess to murders giving enough details to close cold cases and have non-circumstantial evidence linking them to the crime?  Or what about the Timothy McVeigh's who confess and outline the plan enough that it is impossible that they were not involved?  Or the Boston Bombers who had videotape evidence of their crimes?

Or what about those apprehended at the scene of a crime with the weapon in hand that killed, etc.

I agree with you on cases too often prosecuted with flimsy evidence and think the death penalty should never be instituted in cases where there can be any doubt.  The death penalty should only be used in the most extreme cases, and only when the evidence is beyond a reasonable doubt.  A term that should be far stricter than it has been applied. 

It shouldn't be about revenge, or as a possible deterrent.  It should be about punishing those who commit abhorrent acts so heinous that the society shouldn't house and pay for them to live out their natural lives, or give them the faintest opportunity to somehow become free to commit more heinous acts such as in a prison break, disaster, or some kind of bureaucratic screw up.

You are the premier example of why government shouldn't kill its citizens.  You would have government killing everyone who disagreed with you.  You would have government killing people just because if your ignorance.

Government should not kill its citizens and you are why.   There should be no exceptions.

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10 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

You are the premier example of why government shouldn't kill its citizens.  You would have government killing everyone who disagreed with you.  You would have government killing people just because if your ignorance.

Government should not kill its citizens and you are why.   There should be no exceptions.

I tried to engage you honestly and you have to respond as a phucktard.

Libertard's gonna libertard.

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4 minutes ago, Boise fan said:

I tried to engage you honestly and you have to respond as a phucktard.

Libertard's gonna libertard.

I responded to you honestly.  Authoritarian communists like you are the reason government needs restrictions.  You are the evil that permeates the world.  You are the supporters of Pol Pot, Stalin, Maduro, Castro etc....     Nothing is more evil in this world than people who think like you.

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3 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

I responded to you honestly.  Authoritarian communists like you are the reason government needs restrictions.  You are the evil that permeates the world.  You are the supporters of Pol Pot, Stalin, Maduro, Castro etc....     Nothing is more evil in this world than people who think like you.

Gawd you're retarded.  It's so ridiculous that you go down that commie bullshit path.  You do it because you have to demonize those you disagree with.

It's part of you being a narcissistic asshole who is as dumb as a post.  My mistake for attempting to be civil with you.

Go pound sand you authoritarian douche-nozzle phucktard.

 

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