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Rebels18

Trump will sign Spending Bill AND Declare National Emergency

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1 hour ago, #1Stunner said:

Does anyone else find this all entertaining???

Even if you don't like the wall, or like it, or whatever, this is fun.

 

worldburn-top.jpg

I don't mind sitting on my patio drinking beer and watching the World burn, as long as the Constitution isn't going up in flames right along with it.

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2 minutes ago, BSUTOP25 said:

You don't have to look very far.

0710047F-6671-4326-8C8E-165DDCA9A6AD.thumb.jpeg.bfc8d03934e74b80bce480489ac71292.jpeg.95b6ac0a2fb5193aef7845f174618794.jpeg

@mugtang

Hail @mugtang , our great and honorable leader!

Your grace is comforting, and your wrath is terrible!

Show us the way in these times of need.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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1 hour ago, #1Stunner said:

Trump is going to win in Court on this.

There is a long precedent of the Executive Branch determining what is a "National Emergency".

And he is probably right.... A lawsuit will be filed in the 9th circuit (shocker).

How? This is clearly unconstitutional. Congress has already appropriated this money for something else. The President can't just move money wherever the hell he wants to.  He does have the power to declare an emergency, no one is debating that fact. He does not however have the Constitutional authority to appropriate funds for his dumbass emergency.

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smart guys say...

 

 

 

 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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3 minutes ago, retrofade said:

So when should impeachment be used? 

I'm not arguing against impeachment, simply noting that elections are my preferred method for removing electeds.  Both houses are full of the same shyt that the WH is full of in my opinion.

The World Needs More Cowboys!

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48 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

For political science or political philosophy folks:

Is this a weakness the founders left in our institutions that there is not a protection from those who have political incentives to act at the fringes of their constitutional power?

We are in a position where it is in Trump's political interests to do this. If it works, he wins and we move the line on what we thought was constitutionally allowable in terms of executive power. If it doesn't, he potentially still wins politically because he gets to rail against his constitutional limits and continue to maintain his support. I get that the constitution set up our institutions to be able to change over time when the populace moves one direction or another over time. It's meant to respond to long-term, major popular directives but it is meant to protect against reactionary popular movements. But we seem to be in a place where there is political incentive for those in power to test the limits of their power. It's like the velociraptors in Jurassic Park - the fences and backup systems they installed for those things were not built for the realities on the ground.

This isn't just for Trump, either. I wondered this about some of the things Obama did, and I am worried that it will continue with the next president. If there is political incentive to violate the constitution, what the eff is the point of having one in the first place? 

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin

"Human rights can only be assured among a virtuous people. The general government . . . can never be in danger of degenerating into a monarchy, an oligarchy, an aristocracy, or any despotic or oppresive form so long as there is any virtue in the body of the people."

George Washington
 

"It is in the manners and spirit of a people which preserve a republic in vigour. . . . degeneracy in these is a canker which soon eats into the heart of its laws and constitution."
Thomas Jefferson

"The institution of delegated power implies that there is a portion of virtue and honor among mankind which may be a reasonable foundation of confidence."
Alexander Hamilton
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
John Adams

I wouldn’t say it was a weakness necessarily, more of a gamble that they were willing to risk to see if their experiment might work. Failure would only result in all the other unhappy systems already tried and being utilized everywhere else in the world. They knew they risked a breakdown in the system, but were willing to bet on the people of the colonies who had stood up to overthrew the yoke of England’s system. They weren’t blind to the potential flaws. They saw them as unavoidable but trusted that a free people would value what they valued, and teach later generations to value it as well.

And let’s not forget they were hypocrites and they knew it. They expected the “democracy” and republic they were creating to be run by men like them. Educated, brilliant men with the work ethic to also allow them the leisure to also be virtuous gentlemen concerned with the public good over their private interests, the highest form of virtue in their mind.  They didn’t free the slaves, they didn’t enfranchise women, they allowed the state’s to decide on whether only land owning males could take part in government. They though that doing otherwise would screw up their little gamble at Liberty. They were right, and wrong, within a two decades. The Federalists, which most founders were save the Jefferson/Madison types, were wiped out due to Jefferson’s populist stances on democracy on self government. The elite gentlemen were overwhelmed by the influx of newly enfranchised voters that were unlike them. But the system survived and thrived.

Now...it’s too long a topic to get into why our society has failed to be the virtuous society our founders counted on. But there’s one answer for one of your questions at least.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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6 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin

"Human rights can only be assured among a virtuous people. The general government . . . can never be in danger of degenerating into a monarchy, an oligarchy, an aristocracy, or any despotic or oppresive form so long as there is any virtue in the body of the people."

George Washington
 

"It is in the manners and spirit of a people which preserve a republic in vigour. . . . degeneracy in these is a canker which soon eats into the heart of its laws and constitution."
Thomas Jefferson

"The institution of delegated power implies that there is a portion of virtue and honor among mankind which may be a reasonable foundation of confidence."
Alexander Hamilton
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
John Adams

I wouldn’t say it was a weakness necessarily, more of a gamble that they were willing to risk to see if their experiment might work. Failure would only result in all the other unhappy systems already tried and being utilized everywhere else in the world. They knew they risked a breakdown in the system, but were willing to bet on the people of the colonies who had stood up to overthrew the yoke of England’s system. They weren’t blind to the potential flaws. They saw them as unavoidable but trusted that a free people would value what they valued, and teach later generations to value it as well.

And let’s not forget they were hypocrites and they knew it. They expected the “democracy” and republic they were creating to be run by men like them. Educated, brilliant men with the work ethic to also allow them the leisure to also be virtuous gentlemen concerned with the public good over their private interests, the highest form of virtue in their mind.  They didn’t free the slaves, they didn’t enfranchise women, they allowed the state’s to decide on whether only land owning males could take part in government. They though that doing otherwise would screw up their little gamble at Liberty. They were right, and wrong, within a two decades. The Federalists, which most founders were save the Jefferson/Madison types, were wiped out due to Jefferson’s populist stances on democracy on self government. The elite gentlemen were overwhelmed by the influx of newly enfranchised voters that were unlike them. But the system survived and thrived.

Now...it’s too long a topic to get into why our society has failed to be the virtuous society our founders counted on. But there’s one answer for one of your questions at least.

If we could use the word "honorable" about more people...

This can, and should, apply to our elected officials too and not just those on the SC.

 

The World Needs More Cowboys!

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1 hour ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

My whole point was that at least their was some portion of the population opposed to Obama’s bullshit. Now that portion has waved the White flag on government by the people, they’re perfectly okay with governing by executive fiat so long as it’s their guy, just as Obama’s ridiculous supporters were. There is nobody left in any numbers to justly oppose when the next moron in cheif wants to screw up our economy tilting at windmills fighting climate change, or screw up the best healthcare system in the world upon which all other systems depend for innovation. The fence is besides the point. It’s the white flag by the last side holding these impulses of the population at bay. The American people want a king, they just disagree on who. 

For those of us that recognized the hypocrisy on both sides going back to Obama, we are not nearly as deflated.  Well, i am not anyways.  You can literally take the same exact interview or quotes from both Trump and Pence on declaring a national emergency and going around Congress and have them argue against themselves from 4 years ago.  Ditto for members of Congress on BOTH sides.  It just so happens it is the Republicans with eggs all over their faces now.  Once we have a Democrat president,  get ready to see climate change taken on once and for all on a grand scale.  And boy will Fox News and their ilk be livid.  Just not today...  No today, they will give it a pass and even bring out expert after expert justifying it.  I turned them on for 5 minutes at lunch in the car and heard about MS-13 members by the thousands (thousands i say!!) being deported.  We are under attack!  Okey dokey.

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2 hours ago, #1Stunner said:

Thanks for the insight.   

And OT (not sports related), I look forward to BYU scheduling NM State often.   We love the Land of Enchantment State!   It's an honor to play NM State.

It really is fascinating the news can dictate how people see the country and world.  I truly feel for those that don't have the means, or possibly desire, to travel and interact with different cultures.  Trump has painted a picture of border cities, and had it repeated on conservative news outlets, that is flat our misleading.  The ignorant don't know they are being played, and if you have never seen anything but your neighborhood or city or part of your state it makes sense.  My advice, turn off the television/computer/cell phone and go out and see the world for yourself.  Don't trust the left leaning or right leaning media to tell you.  You will be amazed and better person for it.

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25 minutes ago, alum93 said:

For those of us that recognized the hypocrisy on both sides going back to Obama, we are not nearly as deflated.  Well, i am not anyways.  You can literally take the same exact interview or quotes from both Trump and Pence on declaring a national emergency and going around Congress and have them argue against themselves from 4 years ago.  Ditto for members of Congress on BOTH sides.  It just so happens it is the Republicans with eggs all over their faces now.  Once we have a Democrat president,  get ready to see climate change taken on once and for all on a grand scale.  And boy will Fox News and their ilk be livid.  Just not today...  No today, they will give it a pass and even bring out expert after expert justifying it.  I turned them on for 5 minutes at lunch in the car and heard about MS-13 members by the thousands (thousands i say!!) being deported.  We are under attack!  Okey dokey.

My point isn’t the damn politicians and media hacks being hypocrites. It’s the everyday voter on the right being cool with this garbage. It can’t succeed if there is pushback from people like them and they seem fine enough with it. This is how we’ll be doing things from now on, and maybe you or others are okay with it, but I think it sucks. Pen and a phone governance is bullshit, especially for such specious reasons as we’ve seen recently. Just forge a crown already, it’s what America wants.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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58 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin

"Human rights can only be assured among a virtuous people. The general government . . . can never be in danger of degenerating into a monarchy, an oligarchy, an aristocracy, or any despotic or oppresive form so long as there is any virtue in the body of the people."

George Washington
 

"It is in the manners and spirit of a people which preserve a republic in vigour. . . . degeneracy in these is a canker which soon eats into the heart of its laws and constitution."
Thomas Jefferson

"The institution of delegated power implies that there is a portion of virtue and honor among mankind which may be a reasonable foundation of confidence."
Alexander Hamilton
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
John Adams

I wouldn’t say it was a weakness necessarily, more of a gamble that they were willing to risk to see if their experiment might work. Failure would only result in all the other unhappy systems already tried and being utilized everywhere else in the world. They knew they risked a breakdown in the system, but were willing to bet on the people of the colonies who had stood up to overthrew the yoke of England’s system. They weren’t blind to the potential flaws. They saw them as unavoidable but trusted that a free people would value what they valued, and teach later generations to value it as well.

And let’s not forget they were hypocrites and they knew it. They expected the “democracy” and republic they were creating to be run by men like them. Educated, brilliant men with the work ethic to also allow them the leisure to also be virtuous gentlemen concerned with the public good over their private interests, the highest form of virtue in their mind.  They didn’t free the slaves, they didn’t enfranchise women, they allowed the state’s to decide on whether only land owning males could take part in government. They though that doing otherwise would screw up their little gamble at Liberty. They were right, and wrong, within a two decades. The Federalists, which most founders were save the Jefferson/Madison types, were wiped out due to Jefferson’s populist stances on democracy on self government. The elite gentlemen were overwhelmed by the influx of newly enfranchised voters that were unlike them. But the system survived and thrived.

Now...it’s too long a topic to get into why our society has failed to be the virtuous society our founders counted on. But there’s one answer for one of your questions at least.

Yes, the FF were elitists in a sense.  To be honest, I'm a bit of one at heart as well. 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, toonkee said:

Yes, the FF were elitists in a sense.  To be honest, I'm a bit of one at heart as well. 

 

 

Yeah well, they were elite. Are us badasses supposed to feel bad about our badassery? That’s bad for the world.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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14 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

My point isn’t the damn politicians and media hacks being hypocrites. It’s the everyday voter on the right being cool with this garbage. It can’t succeed if there is pushback from people like them and they seem fine enough with it. This is how we’ll be doing things from now on, and maybe you or others are okay with it, but I think it sucks. Pen and a phone governance is bullshit, especially for such specious reasons as we’ve seen recently. Just forge a crown already, it’s what America wants.

I never said i was ok with it.  I just never had confidence the right would push back if they were in agreement with the end goal once their side was in power.  

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Just now, alum93 said:

I never said i was ok with it.  I just never had confidence the right would push back if they were in agreement with the end goal once their side was in power.  

On that you were right. And we suck.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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