Green New Deal

[Boise fan]

28 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

Without capitalism there is no government.

They already did it.  Government certainly had nothing to do with it getting done.  Government was just the intermediary that made it way more expensive.

The opposite is true.  Who do you think creates the marketplace?  Controls it?  I know you are an anarchist at heart, but companies would not be able to run things by themselves.  It would be untenable.  Government was created to bring order to disorder.  Sure it's become a bloated whale that needs to go on a diet.  But your ideal of letting companies self regulate and everything would be just dandy is a fantasy land that would destroy this country faster than your inherent racist/sexist traits becoming the norm.

[bluerules009]

56 minutes ago, Boise fan said:

The opposite is true.  Who do you think creates the marketplace?  Controls it?  I know you are an anarchist at heart, but companies would not be able to run things by themselves.  It would be untenable.  Government was created to bring order to disorder.  Sure it's become a bloated whale that needs to go on a diet.  But your ideal of letting companies self regulate and everything would be just dandy is a fantasy land that would destroy this country faster than your inherent racist/sexist traits becoming the norm.

This isn't your command economy moron.  Maybe in your dreams of communist glory there is a government created marketplace.  That isn't reality though moron.

[bluerules009]

1 hour ago, Boise fan said:

Explain that to the defense industry. Or the majority of construction. Aerospace. Telecommunications. Farming. Etc.

People would still need defense even without government moron.

Capitalism just creates a government to do it in a community way.

[Boise fan]

1 minute ago, bluerules009 said:

This isn't your command economy moron.  Maybe in your dreams of communist glory there is a government created marketplace.  That isn't reality though moron.

It has nothing to do with a command economy, moron.  It's the simple fact that without those little bills floating around in your wallet, there would be no phucking market for you to play in.  What are you going to do, try and go back to the barter system?

Gawd you're an idiot.

[bluerules009]

1 hour ago, Boise fan said:

The costs would go down in healthcare. They are already way too artificially high. Those figures are using rates based on the current marketplace.  It doesn't take into consideration the changes to the market. I know prices would go down.  And they should. Right now it's arbitrary.  There is no legitimacy to the charges, it's a loosely based dartboard to see what will stick.

So despite costs going up after medicare.

Costs going up after medicaid.

Costs going up after obamacare.

You are telling us that costs would go down if government ran it all? 

With  government controlling 70+% of health care you would think at this point we would be getting some of your vaunted command economy saving. 

HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!

[Boise fan]

2 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

People would still need defense even without government moron.

Capitalism just creates a government to do it in a community way.

You really don't understand anything very well.

[Boise fan]

Just now, bluerules009 said:

So despite costs going up after medicare.

Costs going up after medicaid.

Costs going up after obamacare.

You are telling us that costs would go down if government ran it all? 

With  government controlling 70+% of health care you would think at this point we would be getting some of your vaunted command economy saving. 

HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!

Yup, you're an idiot.

[bluerules009]

1 minute ago, Boise fan said:

It has nothing to do with a command economy, moron.  It's the simple fact that without those little bills floating around in your wallet, there would be no phucking market for you to play in.  What are you going to do, try and go back to the barter system?

Gawd you're an idiot.

There was always a market to play in.  You go to places in the world with no government and those little bills floating around in your wallet spend just the same.

Just now, Boise fan said:

You really don't understand anything very well.

Can't argue the issue now so back to page 1.  HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!

[bluerules009]

1 minute ago, Boise fan said:

Yup, you're an idiot.

Can't argue the issue now so back to page 1.  HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!

[Boise fan]

8 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

There was always a market to play in.  You go to places in the world with no government and those little bills floating around in your wallet spend just the same.

Can't argue the issue now so back to page 1.  HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!

Did you really just write that?  Are you really that stupid?   Do you understand anything about currency? 

You run businesses?  I'm calling bullshit on that. Just another in the long line of lies you tell.  No one as stupid as you could run a business.

I can't believe you are advocating a return to Feudalism. Wait, yes, I can believe you would.  I'm just shocked anyone could be that clueless.  But you are a Libertarian.  'Nuff said.

[soupslam1]

2 hours ago, toonkee said:

The Hoover Dam was a government project that unleashed virtually incalculable economic development, exponentially larger than the investment. 

 

Government may propose and facilitate projects, but the money and labor that build them come from private companies and those that work for them. 

[Boise fan]

Early Libertards

 

[bluerules009]

1 hour ago, Boise fan said:

Did you really just write that?  Are you really that stupid?   Do you understand anything about currency? 

You run businesses?  I'm calling bullshit on that. Just another in the long line of lies you tell.  No one as stupid as you could run a business.

I can't believe you are advocating a return to Feudalism. Wait, yes, I can believe you would.  I'm just shocked anyone could be that clueless.  But you are a Libertarian.  'Nuff said.

Your command economy dream is just that.

Everything is the result of capitalism.   When you get in its way you end up with the Soviet Union, North Korea, Venezuela or something worse.

Capitalism even creates government and it couldn't exist at the high level we want without capitalism.

[thelawlorfaithful]

2 hours ago, Boise fan said:

The costs would go down in healthcare. They are already way too artificially high. Those figures are using rates based on the current marketplace.  It doesn't take into consideration the changes to the market. I know prices would go down.  And they should. Right now it's arbitrary.  There is no legitimacy to the charges, it's a loosely based dartboard to see what will stick.

So umm, how would the costs go down? How are we setting the prices?

[thelawlorfaithful]

8 hours ago, toonkee said:

The Hoover Dam was a government project that unleashed virtually incalculable economic development, exponentially larger than the investment. 

 

Yes, we paid some engineers and laborers to pour concrete and steel into a river at the cost of .00082% of the national gdp. We didn’t have to shut down the railroads and burn all the cornfields to facillitate an increase of 33% government spending, making 33% of all gdp to be allocated by the government for the program alone, to make it happen.

There is investment. And there is retarded socialism. All apologies for my breach of etiquette @CPslograd, but this bill is truly retarded in the most insulting sense to bad ideas and nothing else. It bears no resemblense to a small, government program that could produce enormous economic benefits.

[Akkula]

4 hours ago, bluerules009 said:

Your command economy dream is just that.

Everything is the result of capitalism.   When you get in its way you end up with the Soviet Union, North Korea, Venezuela or something worse.

Capitalism even creates government and it couldn't exist at the high level we want without capitalism.

See...all the "communists" on this board are just taking a moderate position recognizing the role of a mixed capitalist system while the "conservatives" are taking the position of anarchy.  Capitalism is a necessary but not sufficient condition for a successful society and you need the people to get together to solve problems that the capitalist system is unable to handle.  Without the government we wouldn't have the internet, the hoover dam, we couldn't navigate the rivers, we wouldn't have an interstate highway system, no power grid, a very under educated public.  The list goes on and on.  Imagine if the internet were never created by the government and made available...how many companies wouldn't exist?  The people funded and developed that and let all those companies use it for FREE!  Private businesses get access to subsidized land grazing, public drilling, coast guard protection from pirates, at either no charge or a hugely subsidized rate for the most powerful interests.  Who is stealing from whom!?!

[Akkula]

9 hours ago, mugtang said:

Nothing in recent history suggests that when the federal government gets involved in something it drives down costs.  It’s usually the exact opposite that happens. For example, college tuition has skyrocketed since the feds got involved and medical costs have as well.  Look at the bloated defense contracts.  The F-35 cost nearly twice the amount to develop as was budgeted.  

Well, I agree 100% that I would like to see the states handling more.  We have a situation where we literally can't pass any legislation at the federal level.  Even some Democratic senators say they like the filibuster for institutional reasons and so they don't want to kill it.  The last thing we need is to have a bunch of old codgers griping at each other but not actually doing anything in the senate.  If I want that I can go early in the morning to McDonalds.  If the Feds can't figure out how to do the work of the people and pass legislation then they need to give it up and put more power to the states.  That is government that is closer to the people anyway.

[soupslam1]

4 hours ago, Akkula said:

See...all the "communists" on this board are just taking a moderate position recognizing the role of a mixed capitalist system while the "conservatives" are taking the position of anarchy.  Capitalism is a necessary but not sufficient condition for a successful society and you need the people to get together to solve problems that the capitalist system is unable to handle.  Without the government we wouldn't have the internet, the hoover dam, we couldn't navigate the rivers, we wouldn't have an interstate highway system, no power grid, a very under educated public.  The list goes on and on.  Imagine if the internet were never created by the government and made available...how many companies wouldn't exist?  The people funded and developed that and let all those companies use it for FREE!  Private businesses get access to subsidized land grazing, public drilling, coast guard protection from pirates, at either no charge or a hugely subsidized rate for the most powerful interests.  Who is stealing from whom!?!

Government only exists because of tax dollars taken from private companies and people that work for them. Without those tax dollars government would cease to exist. Government creates very little. Which is good. They do enough damage the way it is. If they were actually involved in producing products, things would cost two or three times what they cost now. 

Dont get me wrong. There is a place for government. The problem is in many cases they have become more of a hindrance than helping. 

[toonkee]

9 hours ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

Yes, we paid some engineers and laborers to pour concrete and steel into a river at the cost of .00082% of the national gdp. We didn’t have to shut down the railroads and burn all the cornfields to facillitate an increase of 33% government spending, making 33% of all gdp to be allocated by the government for the program alone, to make it happen.

There is investment. And there is retarded socialism. All apologies for my breach of etiquette @CPslograd, but this bill is truly retarded in the most insulting sense to bad ideas and nothing else. It bears no resemblense to a small, government program that could produce enormous economic benefits.

My intention was not to defend the green new deal, which is nuts for the most part, but to counter the belief that all government spending and investment is bad, that the economy is on some libertarian island only hindered by the government.  Things like the hoover dam and the space program are mere drops in the fiscal ocean yet are responsible for a massive amount of today's GDP.    

[Rebels18]

Take a trip into absolute bizarro land with this twitter thread. AOC retweeted this dude making fun of Tucker getting "blown out" by her crazy leftist adviser on some of the details in the FAQ of the Green New Deal:

https://mobile.twitter.com/ndrew_lawrence/status/1094046349329338369

They posted it literally as some kind of 'Tucker got BTFO moment'. It’s absolutely insane they literally live in some sort of bizarro opposite world

They're acting as if the FAQ page (that they took down off the website after it went viral) is a “fake document circulating by GOP conspiracy theorists” This adviser tries to hide all of AOCs embarrassing GND ideas by saying what they originally listed in the FAQ was a doctored document. Specifically they use Mark Dice’s save toilet water joke screenshot. AOC RTed it implying he’s some GOP leader mastermind Russian agent putting out the equivalent of the piss dossier. 

These people are actually crazy.