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GoState99755

A BIG F U to the Gays from the wyo legislature.

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11 minutes ago, Aslowhiteguy said:

I think you can be charged with a hate crime even if the victim is not part of a protected group.  There are no special protections for Jews that I am aware of.  Yet if you vandalize a synagogue you can be charged with both vandalism and a hate crime.

If you are denied employment or housing based on sexual orientation, is there a state where you can't sue over that issue?  

Again, please tell me where you can legally discriminate against LBGT's in regards to housing or employment.

Honestly, BF, I think your heart is in the right place here.  But what you are proposing is essentially a cure in search of a disease. 

 

Just from Wikipedia:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_United_States

Employment:

There is no federal statute addressing employment discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity. Protections at the national level are limited. Some regulations protect government employees but do not extend their protections to the private sector. Twenty-two states, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, and over 140 cities and counties have enacted bans on discrimination based on sexual orientation and/or sexual identity. Employment discrimination refers to discriminatory employment practices such as bias in hiring, promotion, job assignment, termination, and compensation, and various types of harassment.[17]In the United States there is "very little statutory, common law, and case law establishing employment discrimination based upon sexual orientation as a legal wrong."

1024px-LGBT_employment_discrimination_la

  Sexual orientation and gender identity discrimination prohibited in public and private employment  Sexual orientation discrimination prohibited in public and private employment; gender identity discrimination prohibited in public employment only  Gender identity discrimination prohibited in public and private employment; sexual orientation discrimination prohibited in public employment only   Sexual orientation discrimination prohibited in public and private employment  Gender identity discrimination prohibited in public and private employment  Sexual orientation and gender identity discrimination prohibited in public employment only   Sexual orientation discrimination prohibited in public employment only   No state-level protections based on sexual orientation and/or gender identity

 

Housing:

The Office of Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity (FHEO) is an agency within the United States Department of Housing and Urban Development. FHEO is responsible for administering and enforcing federal fair housing laws and establishing policies that make sure all Americans have equal access to the housing of their choice. Housing discrimination refers to discrimination against potential or current tenants by landlords. In the United States, there is no federal law against such discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity, but at least twenty-two states and many major cities have enacted laws prohibiting it.[16] See, for example, Washington House Bill 2661.

image.thumb.png.616f39b53a02dc8ac74f2e75383d69c1.png

States that prohibit housing discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity. HUD regulations require all housing providers that receive HUD funding not to discriminate against an individual's sexual orientation or gender identity.   Prohibits housing discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity   Prohibits housing discrimination based on sexual orientation only   Does not factor sexual orientation or gender identity/unclear

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And Hate Crimes:

1024px-Map_of_LGBT-related_hate_crime_la

Current U.S. LGBT hate crimes laws by state. A national hate crimes law encompasses both sexual orientation and gender identity.   Sexual orientation and gender identity recognized in state hate crimes law   Sexual orientation recognized in state hate crimes law   Sexual orientation recognized for data collection about hate crimes   State hate crimes law uninclusive of sexual orientation or gender identity

Hate crime laws (also known as bias crimes laws) protect against crimes motivated by feelings of enmity against a protected class. Until 2009, a 1969 federal law defined hate crimes committed on the basis of a person's race, color, religion, or nation origin when engaging in a federally protected activity. In October 2009, Congress passed the Matthew Shepard Act, which expanded the definition of hate crimes to include gender, sexual orientation, gender-identity, and disability.[24] It removed the requirement that the victim of a hate crime be engaged in a federally protected activity.[25] President Obama signed the legislation on October 28, 2009

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You're right, I'd forgotten about the 2009 Federal hate crime law.  But that doesn't protect against discrimination, especially in housing and employment.

 

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It has always seemed logical to me that gays are born that way. Why would you choose to be gay and be ridiculed by many? Why are heterosexual males attracted to females and vice versa? Did they choose to be, or is it a biological attraction you are born with? I think it’s a similar inherent biological attraction for gay people to the same sex they were born with. 

I think the choice angle comes from and is reinforced by most religions. 

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16 minutes ago, Artist formerly known as Hal said:

Do you think gay women have faced the same amount of dangerous discrimination as gay males ? I don’t . 

 

I don't think it's a competition, but aside from male fantasies of women together, what makes you think women had it any better?

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1 hour ago, Bob said:

I don't buy the 'science' behind it. How can science prove anything when it comes to feelings?

Uh... do you know what science is?

1 hour ago, Aslowhiteguy said:

I can't speak for Bob, but why should they need special protection?  

They have special persecution. 

1 hour ago, Bob said:

Religion has been a cornerstone of civilization. Homosexuality, on the other hand, has not

So... because you like it?

1 hour ago, Aslowhiteguy said:

Why wouldn't existing anti-discrimination laws be enough?  If a gay person feels they have been discriminated against, do they not have the same legal remedies available to them as any other group?

 

No, as laws are in Wyoming they do not. 

56 minutes ago, Jackrabbit said:

Why not also throw in accidental death?

 Not apples to oranges.....hate crime prosecution is a thought crime. 

So is premeditation. So is conspiracy. So is negligence. It's absolutely apples to apples homeskillet. It's just not something that you've thought about. 

56 minutes ago, Bob said:

Religion is grandfathered in because it's been around since... the beginning of time.

You honestly think that religion is older than homosexuality?

36 minutes ago, pokebball said:

1st amendment

I'm not the one who picked arguments that seem to be deliberately designed to sabotage my own position, I'm just responding to them

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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3 hours ago, Boise fan said:

And Hate Crimes:

1024px-Map_of_LGBT-related_hate_crime_la

Current U.S. LGBT hate crimes laws by state. A national hate crimes law encompasses both sexual orientation and gender identity.   Sexual orientation and gender identity recognized in state hate crimes law   Sexual orientation recognized in state hate crimes law   Sexual orientation recognized for data collection about hate crimes   State hate crimes law uninclusive of sexual orientation or gender identity

Hate crime laws (also known as bias crimes laws) protect against crimes motivated by feelings of enmity against a protected class. Until 2009, a 1969 federal law defined hate crimes committed on the basis of a person's race, color, religion, or nation origin when engaging in a federally protected activity. In October 2009, Congress passed the Matthew Shepard Act, which expanded the definition of hate crimes to include gender, sexual orientation, gender-identity, and disability.[24] It removed the requirement that the victim of a hate crime be engaged in a federally protected activity.[25] President Obama signed the legislation on October 28, 2009

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You're right, I'd forgotten about the 2009 Federal hate crime law.  But that doesn't protect against discrimination, especially in housing and employment.

 

Are these big problems or are they closer to the level of not getting a cake?

"Don't underestimate Joe Biden's ability to F@*k things up."

Barack Obama

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20 minutes ago, Aslowhiteguy said:

Are these big problems or are they closer to the level of not getting a cake?

What do you mean - at the Federal level?  The State level?  You quoted the Hate crime map - so only regarding hate crimes?  Or the housing/employment discrimination issue?

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13 minutes ago, Boise fan said:

What do you mean - at the Federal level?  The State level?  You quoted the Hate crime map - so only regarding hate crimes?  Or the housing/employment discrimination issue?

Sorry. I was asking if housing and employment discrimination is a significant problem in the LBGT community?

The only incident I recall off hand involved a retirement community that denied gay or lesbian couples.  I'm pretty sure it was in Bible belt country.  It made some news but I don't recall the outcome.   I haven't looked for a link. I'm watching the game. B)

"Don't underestimate Joe Biden's ability to F@*k things up."

Barack Obama

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10 minutes ago, Aslowhiteguy said:

Sorry. I was asking if housing and employment discrimination is a significant problem in the LBGT community?

The only incident I recall off hand involved a retirement community that denied gay or lesbian couples.  I'm pretty sure it was in Bible belt country.  It made some news but I don't recall the outcome.   I haven't looked for a link. I'm watching the game. B)

I know what you mean, I'm watching hockey.  :D

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/press-releases/31800-lgbt-people-in-idaho-lack-statewide-protections-from-ongoing-discrimination/

Highlights:

– In a 2003 survey of more than 1,100 LGBT people in Idaho, over half of the respondents said they felt they were expected to deny or hide their sexual orientation or gender identity at work, and almost 60 percent said they had been asked to do so by their employer. Almost a quarter of those surveyed reported that they believed they had been fired from a job, not promoted, or had not received compensation or a raise as a result of anti-gay attitudes in their workplace.

– In a 2011 State of Idaho survey of housing service providers in the state, 14 percent of respondents said that housing discrimination based on sexual orientation occurred frequently in their communities.

– Two national public-opinion polls conducted between 2011 and 2013 found that 78 percent of Idaho residents, both LGBT and non-LGBT, thought LGBT people experienced discrimination in the state.

– Reports of discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity in Idaho have been documented in testimony to the state legislature and city councils, administrative complaints, lawsuits, and the media.

LGBT people in Idaho experience socioeconomic disparities.

– 30 percent of LGBT adults in Idaho reported having a household income below $24,000 compared to 22 percent of non-LGBT adults.

– Over one-third of LGBT adults in Idaho reported that they do not have enough money for food compared to 16 percent of non-LGBT adults.

– 27 percent of LGBT adults in Idaho reported not having enough money to meet their health care needs compared to 18 percent of non-LGBT adults.

– 9 percent of LGBT adults in Idaho reported being unemployed compared to 5 percent of non-LGBT adults.

– Research has linked socioeconomic disparities for LGBT people to a lack of legal protections from discrimination and less supportive social attitudes toward LGBT people.

-----------------------------------------

So yeah, I think it's a significant problem.

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20 minutes ago, Boise fan said:

I know what you mean, I'm watching hockey.  :D

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/press-releases/31800-lgbt-people-in-idaho-lack-statewide-protections-from-ongoing-discrimination/

Highlights:

– In a 2003 survey of more than 1,100 LGBT people in Idaho, over half of the respondents said they felt they were expected to deny or hide their sexual orientation or gender identity at work, and almost 60 percent said they had been asked to do so by their employer. Almost a quarter of those surveyed reported that they believed they had been fired from a job, not promoted, or had not received compensation or a raise as a result of anti-gay attitudes in their workplace.

– In a 2011 State of Idaho survey of housing service providers in the state, 14 percent of respondents said that housing discrimination based on sexual orientation occurred frequently in their communities.

– Two national public-opinion polls conducted between 2011 and 2013 found that 78 percent of Idaho residents, both LGBT and non-LGBT, thought LGBT people experienced discrimination in the state.

– Reports of discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity in Idaho have been documented in testimony to the state legislature and city councils, administrative complaints, lawsuits, and the media.

LGBT people in Idaho experience socioeconomic disparities.

– 30 percent of LGBT adults in Idaho reported having a household income below $24,000 compared to 22 percent of non-LGBT adults.

– Over one-third of LGBT adults in Idaho reported that they do not have enough money for food compared to 16 percent of non-LGBT adults.

– 27 percent of LGBT adults in Idaho reported not having enough money to meet their health care needs compared to 18 percent of non-LGBT adults.

– 9 percent of LGBT adults in Idaho reported being unemployed compared to 5 percent of non-LGBT adults.

– Research has linked socioeconomic disparities for LGBT people to a lack of legal protections from discrimination and less supportive social attitudes toward LGBT people.

-----------------------------------------

So yeah, I think it's a significant problem.

I don't mean to be callous, but those numbers aren't bad for the Mississippi of the West.  And I don't think it's unrealistic to expect those numbers to improve over time, without gov't help. They will probably improve quicker without gov't interference. 

Honestly, I don't see a need to to regulate what could be  a self correcting problem.

"Don't underestimate Joe Biden's ability to F@*k things up."

Barack Obama

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5 minutes ago, Aslowhiteguy said:

I don't mean to be callous, but those numbers aren't bad for the Mississippi of the West.  And I don't think it's unrealistic to expect those numbers to improve over time, without gov't help. They will probably improve quicker without gov't interference. 

Honestly, I don't see a need to to regulate what could be  a self correcting problem.

Total population of Idaho is 1,790,000.  It's one of the most conservative states in the Union (imo), with (I believe) the 2nd highest population of Mormons. Very religious, and very intolerant of homosexuality.  So the LBGT community there is small, sure.  But the percentages of those who are experiencing or report experiencing discrimination is significant enough to indicate that a problem exists.  Right now those people have no recourse.  Idaho's state government has repeatedly punted any efforts to add anti-discrimination laws.  It's been left to the municipality level. 

Adding the class at the Federal level makes it a moot point.  I'm sure if other states data on discrimination were listed, you'd see the numbers are significant enough to warrant action.  Or maybe you wouldn't.  Personally I think that one case is abhorrent in this day and age.  You may find the numbers tolerable.  Unless you are one of those being discriminated against.

At least that's how I look at it.

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3 minutes ago, Boise fan said:

Total population of Idaho is 1,790,000.  It's one of the most conservative states in the Union (imo), with (I believe) the 2nd highest population of Mormons. Very religious, and very intolerant of homosexuality.  So the LBGT community there is small, sure.  But the percentages of those who are experiencing or report experiencing discrimination is significant enough to indicate that a problem exists.  Right now those people have no recourse.  Idaho's state government has repeatedly punted any efforts to add anti-discrimination laws.  It's been left to the municipality level. 

Adding the class at the Federal level makes it a moot point.  I'm sure if other states data on discrimination were listed, you'd see the numbers are significant enough to warrant action.  Or maybe you wouldn't.  Personally I think that one case is abhorrent in this day and age.  You may find the numbers tolerable.  Unless you are one of those being discriminated against.

At least that's how I look at it.

What I see is a gradual, steady change in attitude.  I don't see a crisis here. There is no need for regulation, IMO. 

 

"Don't underestimate Joe Biden's ability to F@*k things up."

Barack Obama

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9 minutes ago, Aslowhiteguy said:

What I see is a gradual, steady change in attitude.  I don't see a crisis here. There is no need for regulation, IMO. 

 

I honestly don't know if the gradual change has been steady with a Trump government.  I only know what is presented.  And your response of "I don't see a crises" falls in line with what that legal brief stated, and I re-posted below:

– Research has linked socioeconomic disparities for LGBT people to a lack of legal protections from discrimination and less supportive social attitudes toward LGBT people.

Putting a protection for LBGT people at the Federal level would resolve the issue completely.  Your response allows for the problem to fester.  And prejudice tends to fester, not abate.

As an aside, I appreciate the dialogue we have shared in this thread.  I think we'll end up agreeing to disagree, but I wanted to state I found the conversation to be very enjoyable!

 

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2 minutes ago, Boise fan said:

I honestly don't know if the gradual change has been steady with a Trump government.  I only know what is presented.  And your response of "I don't see a crises" falls in line with what that legal brief stated, and I re-posted below:

– Research has linked socioeconomic disparities for LGBT people to a lack of legal protections from discrimination and less supportive social attitudes toward LGBT people.

Putting a protection for LBGT people at the Federal level would resolve the issue completely.  Your response allows for the problem to fester.  And prejudice tends to fester, not abate.

IMO, it's better if the govt stays out of a social issue that is getting better on it's own.

Also, I don't believe the feds can change attitudes via regulation. But they sure can make things worse by interfering.

 

 

"Don't underestimate Joe Biden's ability to F@*k things up."

Barack Obama

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7 minutes ago, Aslowhiteguy said:

IMO, it's better if the govt stays out of a social issue that is getting better on it's own.

Also, I don't believe the feds can change attitudes via regulation. But they sure can make things worse by interfering.

 

 

I get that - you are a keep government out guy.

Feds have been successful in punishing those who circumvent laws that protect specific classes. It gives recourse for those who are victimized.  And it may have dissuaded many from committing acts they might have done had no protections existed.  Government is a necessary evil. Protecting the citizens is one of the biggest reasons for it.  This falls under that umbrella.

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27 minutes ago, Boise fan said:

I get that - you are a keep government out guy.

Feds have been successful in punishing those who circumvent laws that protect specific classes. It gives recourse for those who are victimized.  And it may have dissuaded many from committing acts they might have done had no protections existed.  Government is a necessary evil. Protecting the citizens is one of the biggest reasons for it.  This falls under that umbrella.

When things are trending towards further acceptance, it would be foolish for the feds to get involved. And you can't expect the deeply religious regions of the country to keep pace with the more progressive areas in regards to attitudes towards homosexuality. 

 

"Don't underestimate Joe Biden's ability to F@*k things up."

Barack Obama

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Ahh....I remember the day I chose to be straight. May 13th 1995. I was 13 years old. I woke up that day and looked in the mirror and thought" I have so many choices of who to be attracted to which should I choose? Should I make a choice that will make my harder or should I choose to make my life easier by conforming with most people and being attractive to women." I choose the easy way out but I don't regret it.

Bob do you remember the day you choose to be straight? Lets hear your story.

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10 hours ago, Aslowhiteguy said:

When things are trending towards further acceptance, it would be foolish for the feds to get involved. And you can't expect the deeply religious regions of the country to keep pace with the more progressive areas in regards to attitudes towards homosexuality. 

 

The trend towards acceptance correlates with states/cities passing laws. Now correlation/causation but these laws are signals to people that being gay is fine and discrimination isn't which I believe speeds up acceptance.

Also I don't feel like telling a gay man in Wyoming or Idaho that I know you are having a hard time and feel like you need protection but don't worry society is slowly changing so while things may be hard for you in 50 or 100 years gay men won't be discriminated against so why do we need to put laws on the books now.

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11 hours ago, Aslowhiteguy said:

What I see is a gradual, steady change in attitude.  I don't see a crisis here. There is no need for regulation, IMO. 

 

The toxic attitudes that are currently retreating had been reinforced and supported by legislation for centuries, I don't think that it is crazy to enact legislation to start to undo the harm previously caused by it. 

11 minutes ago, tspoke said:

The trend towards acceptance correlates with states/cities passing laws. Now correlation/causation but these laws are signals to people that being gay is fine and discrimination isn't which I believe speeds up acceptance.

Also I don't feel like telling a gay man in Wyoming or Idaho that I know you are having a hard time and feel like you need protection but don't worry society is slowly changing so while things may be hard for you in 50 or 100 years gay men won't be discriminated against so why do we need to put laws on the books now.

That's how I feel too. "Don't worry it is trending towards safety, despite the fact that in most of the world you will face government persecution and that in a lot of the world there's government sponsored pogroms at the easy end and that there is no guarantee that the current climate is going to be tolerant at all, as tolerance for homosexuality waxes and wanes in different centuries regardless of technological progress, things are getting better so accept the pittance we're giving you now and pray that nothing ever derails the fragile cultural moment we're experiencing". 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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Do we have to have a law and regulate everything in existence? I would bet half the laws on the books aren’t being enforced yet we continue to add more all the time. Not only that, but people always find ways to circumvent most laws. 

I have nothing against gay people. I’m just sick of the government sticking their nose into everything we say and do. 

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