CA's Blue-eyed Coyotes

[bluerules009]

1 hour ago, smltwnrckr said:

John Kilgo and numerous colleagues disagree.

 

Kilgo, John C., Mark Vukovich, H. Scott Ray, Christopher E. Shaw, and Charles Ruth. "Coyote removal, understory cover, and survival of white‐tailed deer neonates." The Journal of Wildlife Management 78, no. 7 (2014): 1261-1271.

Predation by coyotes (Canis latrans) on white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus) neonates has led to reduced recruitment in many deer populations in Southeastern North America...

Kilgo, John C., H. Scott Ray, Mark Vukovich, Matthew J. Goode, and Charles Ruth. "Predation by coyotes on white‐tailed deer neonates in South Carolina." The Journal of Wildlife Management 76, no. 7 (2012): 1420-1430.

Coyotes (Canis latrans) are novel predators throughout the southeastern United States and their depredation of white‐tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus) neonates may explain observed declines in some deer populations in the region, but direct evidence for such a relationship is lacking. Our objective was to quantify neonate survival rates and causes of mortality at the United States Department of Energy's Savannah River Site (SRS), South Carolina to directly evaluate degree of predation in this deer population. ... Predation by coyotes was the most frequent cause of death among the 70 monitored neonates that died, definitively accounting for 37% of all mortalities and potentially accounting for as much as 80% when also including probable coyote predation.

Kilgo, John C., H. Scott Ray, Charles Ruth, and Karl V. Miller. "Can coyotes affect deer populations in southeastern North America?." The Journal of Wildlife Management 74, no. 5 (2010): 929-933.

The coyote (Canis latrans) is a recent addition to the fauna of eastern North America, and in many areas coyote populations have been established for only a decade or two. Although coyotes are known predators of white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus) in their historic range, effects this new predator may have on eastern deer populations have received little attention. ... recent research from Alabama documented significant coyote predation on fawns there.

This is a common claim backed up by nothing.  No study has ever found coyotes significantly preying on deer.

In fact all studies on the subject have shown no significant deer predation at all by coyotes.  Even in northern areas.

Coyotes will scavenge anything including bear, moose, humans, or deer, that does not mean they hunt them.  That is just targets of opportunity.   

https://emammal.si.edu/okaloosa-science-home-page/blog/do-coyotes-cause-deer-declines

Researchers saw the problem with these studies and conducted some very large and intensivecoyote deer research throughout the United States.  A 9 year study in Idaho removed both mountain lions and coyotes(8) and several large studies in Wyoming, Utah, and Colorado removed coyotes from areas ranging from 40 to 300 square miles(9–11).  None of these studies found any evidence that coyote removal caused an increase in the deer population.  The study in Idaho actually found that fawn predation was more affected by the abundance of other prey than coyote removal.   The two best coyote removal studies with white-tailed deer populations also show that coyote removal does not affect overall population growth.  The first study in southeast Texas showed that coyote removal increased fawn survival but did not change the population density(12).  Another long term study of a deer population in a predator free fenced area in Texas found that deer density increased for a few years and then sharply declined to match the populations outside the predator exclosure (13) and the deer in the predator free area had a much poorer diet (14).  

[smltwnrckr]

11 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

This is a common claim backed up by nothing.  No study has ever found coyotes significantly preying on deer. See: the studies I posted before you wrote this. Jesus. 

In fact all studies on the subject have shown no significant deer predation at all by coyotes.  Even in northern areas.

Coyotes will scavenge anything including bear, moose, humans, or deer, that does not mean they hunt them.  That is just targets of opportunity.   

https://emammal.si.edu/okaloosa-science-home-page/blog/do-coyotes-cause-deer-declines

Researchers saw the problem with these studies and conducted some very large and intensivecoyote deer research throughout the United States.  A 9 year study in Idaho removed both mountain lions and coyotes(8) and several large studies in Wyoming, Utah, and Colorado removed coyotes from areas ranging from 40 to 300 square miles(9–11).  None of these studies found any evidence that coyote removal caused an increase in the deer population.  The study in Idaho actually found that fawn predation was more affected by the abundance of other prey than coyote removal.   The two best coyote removal studies with white-tailed deer populations also show that coyote removal does not affect overall population growth.  The first study in southeast Texas showed that coyote removal increased fawn survival but did not change the population density(12).  Another long term study of a deer population in a predator free fenced area in Texas found that deer density increased for a few years and then sharply declined to match the populations outside the predator exclosure (13) and the deer in the predator free area had a much poorer diet (14).  

First, the web page you cited discusses coyote predator behavior's impacts on deer populations. Many of the studies it cites not only state that Coyotes kill deer, but they track those numbers. On all accounts, researchers say coyotes kill deer. The question is how or whether those kills impact the larger deer population.

Second, the opening line of that essay you cited literally states: "Coyotes kill deer. This fact is undisputed. The real question is: Do coyotes cause deer populations to decline?"

 

[easybronc]

I saw a coyote bring down a deer in the winter.  A yearling deer was running at breakneck speed with a coyote in hot pursuit.  We got closer, a 2nd coyote was trailing the first but saw us and spooked.  We then found the first coyote holding the deer by his ears obviously waiting for the 2nd coyote to make the kill.  After a few minutes he saw us and left and so did the deer.  I believe they're mainly scavengers and mice hunters but I'd say they'll also hunt the young and weak deer.

[bluerules009]

43 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

First, the web page you cited discusses coyote predator behavior's impacts on deer populations. Many of the studies it cites not only state that Coyotes kill deer, but they track those numbers. On all accounts, researchers say coyotes kill deer. The question is how or whether those kills impact the larger deer population.

Second, the opening line of that essay you cited literally states: "Coyotes kill deer. This fact is undisputed. The real question is: Do coyotes cause deer populations to decline?"

 

Wales kill Humans too.    

What is undisputed is Wales don't hunt humans and Coyotes don't hunt deer.  Yes they eat carrion.   Yes in the Spring there is more carrion.

If a coyote was eating a wale on a beach in oregon that would not mean coyotes hunt wales.

Coyotes actually farm roads where cars run over deer.  They eat those deer, that does not mean they are hunting them.

 

[Dogs4Me]

I side with Tools...

[GoState99755]

3 hours ago, bsu_alum9 said:

There's a big coyote in my neighborhood that is causing quite a stir by eating up all the urban chickens. Lots of dumb wild turkeys in the neighborhood too, so I'm pretty sure they'll adapt to what's local and easy.

 

Coyotes & Black Bears are highly adaptive...Grey Wolves & Brown Bears, not as much.

Ever since the last drought, we have developed a thriving 'yote population in my suburban Los Ángeles 'hood.  I'm shocked how many ppl think the only solution is getting rid of the canines.  Very few here think we can/should make changes to our lifestyles to accommodate our new neighbors.  I lasted about an-hr-and-fifteen mins on our local coyote FB forum, when I suggested we make small changes in our lifestyles (keep pet food indoors, keep small dogs in at night, etc..) and attempt to live in harmony w/these creatures. FWIW...no sign of rabies in our population yet

Q#1 - Is anyone else seeing similar reactions to coyotes in their area?

Q#2 - What is the biggest domesticated dog breed you're aware of coyotes bring down.

Q#3 - Is anyone living some where were coyotes w/rabies is a issue?   

 

[smltwnrckr]

40 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

Wales kill Humans too.    

What is undisputed is Wales don't hunt humans and Coyotes don't hunt deer.  Yes they eat carrion.   Yes in the Spring there is more carrion.

If a coyote was eating a wale on a beach in oregon that would not mean coyotes hunt wales.

Coyotes actually farm roads where cars run over deer.  They eat those deer, that does not mean they are hunting them.

 

In those last two examples the coyote didn't kill the deer either.

Don't kill the messenger, dude. Feel free to argue with the studies I posted wherein the researchers specifically studied coyote predation on deer. 

[GoState99755]

39 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

Wales kill Humans too.    

What is undisputed is Wales don't hunt humans and Coyotes don't hunt deer.  Yes they eat carrion.   Yes in the Spring there is more carrion.

If a coyote was eating a wale on a beach in oregon that would not mean coyotes hunt wales.

Coyotes actually farm roads where cars run over deer.  They eat those deer, that does not mean they are hunting them.

 

 

Is the southwestern country in the UK, -or- the ridges on corduroy reeking havoc "...kill(ing) humans."

Which is it @bluerules009.  Can you clarify? 

 

[GoState99755]

On 1/31/2019 at 5:35 PM, bluerules009 said:

They mostly eat mice and insects.  The vast majority of rabbits they would eat would be run over by a car first.

 

Our coyotes are going nuts eating domesticated cats & small dogs at the moment.  I hope they'll start eating the rats, but I haven't heard of that yet & still see rats around.  :-(

Is anyone aware of coyotes eating skunks, opossums, raccoons or peafowl?

 

[crixus]

18 minutes ago, GoState99755 said:

 

Is the southwestern country in the UK, -or- the ridges on corduroy reeking havoc "...kill(ing) humans."

Which is it @bluerules009.  Can you clarify? 

 

Maybe it's the dragon from the Welsh flag? 

[GoState99755]

4 hours ago, bluerules009 said:

Unless they are getting rabbits run over by cars they are a small portion of the diet.

Small mammals i.e. mice are 90% of coyotes diet.    Again the only change being where human impact on their environment has given them other sources of food.

They don't hunt deer, that link is just stupid.

 

@bluerules009 is an expert on many things, especially thing that happened where you grew-up, how democrats behave, and name calling when he feels the least bit threatened.

 

@crixus - Here's a report from the US Forest Srvc/USDA supporting your point that BR009 will call FAKE NEWS:

https://www.fs.fed.us/blogs/study-concludes-coyotes-help-manage-deer-population-southeast-us

 

[Jackrabbit]

Coyotes will eat anything that's available...a weakened cow and newborn calf both eaten alive laying on the ground...a lame antelope or injured animal of any kind.  They will eat a skunk asshole first or fresh deer droppings...domestic cats are a delicacy. Anything to stay alive.

Here I thought this thread was about white human smugglers 

 

[GoState99755]

4 hours ago, crixus said:

Maybe it's the dragon from the Welsh flag? 

 

Your probably right.  Breathing fire is a great way to disorient your prey.

FWIW...My lone tattoo is a Welsh Dragon on it's hind legs.

 

[crixus]

4 minutes ago, GoState99755 said:

 

@bluerules009 is an expert on many things, especially thing that happened where you grew-up, how democrats behave, and name calling when he feels the least bit threatened.

 

@crixus - Here's a report from the US Forest Srvc/USDA supporting your point that BR009 will call FAKE NEWS:

https://www.fs.fed.us/blogs/study-concludes-coyotes-help-manage-deer-population-southeast-us

 

Thanks for the link of support. BR0009 is the MWCboard version of Cliff Clavin. 

 

[GoState99755]

2 hours ago, bluerules009 said:

This is a common claim backed up by nothing.  No study has ever found coyotes significantly preying on deer.

In fact all studies on the subject have shown no significant deer predation at all by coyotes.  Even in northern areas.

Coyotes will scavenge anything including bear, moose, humans, or deer, that does not mean they hunt them.  That is just targets of opportunity.   

https://emammal.si.edu/okaloosa-science-home-page/blog/do-coyotes-cause-deer-declines

Researchers saw the problem with these studies and conducted some very large and intensivecoyote deer research throughout the United States.  A 9 year study in Idaho removed both mountain lions and coyotes(8) and several large studies in Wyoming, Utah, and Colorado removed coyotes from areas ranging from 40 to 300 square miles(9–11).  None of these studies found any evidence that coyote removal caused an increase in the deer population.  The study in Idaho actually found that fawn predation was more affected by the abundance of other prey than coyote removal.   The two best coyote removal studies with white-tailed deer populations also show that coyote removal does not affect overall population growth.  The first study in southeast Texas showed that coyote removal increased fawn survival but did not change the population density(12).  Another long term study of a deer population in a predator free fenced area in Texas found that deer density increased for a few years and then sharply declined to match the populations outside the predator exclosure (13) and the deer in the predator free area had a much poorer diet (14).  

 

@bluerules009 - FYI..."scavenge" implies searching for carrion, discarded items &/or waste.  "Hunting" is going after living prey.  Coyotes do both when it comes to deer.

 

[GoState99755]

21 minutes ago, crixus said:

Thanks for the link of support. BR0009 is the MWCboard version of Cliff Clavin. 

 

 

Hahaha.  DYK...John Ratzenburger spent a-month-and-a-half w/@bluerules009 when he was doing his research to formulate the roll of Clifford C Clavin, Jr.?

 

[bluerules009]

1 hour ago, smltwnrckr said:

In those last two examples the coyote didn't kill the deer either.

Don't kill the messenger, dude. Feel free to argue with the studies I posted wherein the researchers specifically studied coyote predation on deer. 

Nothing to argue with your anecdotal posts and links.  I linked the only stuff that had research and study information.

[GoState99755]

6 hours ago, bluerules009 said:

Unless they are getting rabbits run over by cars they are a small portion of the diet.

Small mammals i.e. mice are 90% of coyotes diet.    Again the only change being where human impact on their environment has given them other sources of food.

They don't hunt deer, that link is just stupid.

 

Just of the top of my head I can think of a handful of species of mammal who's diets are drastically different on two-different sides of the same mtn range.

Let me get this straight.  @bluerules009 is claiming "...mice are 90% of coyotes diets" in all of NoAmerica?

 

[GoState99755]

1 hour ago, GoState99755 said:

@bluerules009 is an expert on many things, especially thing that happened where you grew-up, how democrats behave, and name calling when he feels the least bit threatened.

 

@crixus - Here's a report from the US Forest Srvc/USDA supporting your point that BR009 will call FAKE NEWS:

https://www.fs.fed.us/blogs/study-concludes-coyotes-help-manage-deer-population-southeast-us

 

25 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

Nothing to argue with your anecdotal posts and links.  I linked the only stuff that had research and study information.

 

@bluerules009 - So...¿my link from the US Forest Srvc/USDA is "anecdotal?"  If you believe it doesn't include "...study information," you better chk it out again.  It's linked above in this very post of your convenience.  

 

[bluerules009]

1 hour ago, GoState99755 said:

 

 

@bluerules009 - So...¿my link from the US Forest Srvc/USDA is "anecdotal?"  If you believe it doesn't include "...study information," you better chk it out again.  It's linked above in this very post of your convenience.  

 

Actually that was a exercise without a control and without any population data to back it up.  They even admit they couldn't prove a deer was killed by a coyote all they could say was a coyote ate on the dead carcass.   They also reduced coyote populations and it had no effect on deer populations.

You have several anecdotal stories by a government idiot which shows nothing.

Probably typical of your government idiot work.