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BSUTOP25

Has the #MeToo movement started to hurt feminism and equality?

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This is a question, not a statement. Hoping to get some constructive and well thought-out dialog on this topic.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-03/a-wall-street-rule-for-the-metoo-era-avoid-women-at-all-cost

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Rape certainly can't be defended if in fact he was culpable of it but as I understand it, one of the accusations lodged against Neil deGrasse Tyson is that he told a woman he really wanted to hug her and that if he did, he might "want more." O.M.F.G.! Lock him up and throw away the key!

Boom goes the dynamite.

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2 hours ago, BSUTOP25 said:

This is a question, not a statement. Hoping to get some constructive and well thought-out dialog on this topic.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-03/a-wall-street-rule-for-the-metoo-era-avoid-women-at-all-cost

If you were an executive would you be willing to take the risk?  In an era where simply an accusation can destroy your life I have to think many of these executives will be very cautious about hiring women. 

thelawlorfaithful, on 31 Dec 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:One of the rules I live by: never underestimate a man in a dandy looking sweater

 

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On 12/8/2018 at 3:41 PM, mugtang said:

If you were an executive would you be willing to take the risk?  In an era where simply an accusation can destroy your life I have to think many of these executives will be very cautious about hiring women. 

Which is highly unfortunate if true. I’ve been lucky enough to work for some amazing female executives in my career. We can all (hopefully) agree that verifiable unwarranted sexual advances, harrrassment, and assault/rape are hideous acts that should be punished by legal means. That type of barbaric behavior has no place in modern professional environments. But there also has to be some common sense to how these cases are handled when there isn’t cut and dry evidence — wherein a career, life, or business shouldn’t be destroyed by a one off unsubstantiated accusation.

I don’t have the magic answer here but if there is indeed such overreaction that women are being shunned from opportunity as a result, I think we have to take a step back as a society and reassess how we handle these situations.

Individuals and businesses should adhere to a zero tolerance code of ethics with sexual harassment and assault and there needs to be more upfront training and education to prevent it. But there should also be clearly defined areas as to what constitutes an offense and how to go about reporting and proving it. 

There are no easy answers here but curious as to the thoughts of the board on this one. But going back to the original point, we can’t regress with regard to opportunity for women because due to risk of litigation. 

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I don't think it has hurt feminism. I honestly don't walk on eggshells dealing with women, but I'm respectful and not a perv.

I think the "don't even sit next to a woman" is an overreaction. The vast majority of women aren't going to accuse you of "stare rape" or something crazy. Maybe they just shouldn't hire women with blue/purple hair and square-framed glasses.

More often than not, when there's some type of dirty joke or offhanded sexual comment in my workplace, it's a woman saying it.

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The jobs I offer aren't career jobs.  I won't hire a woman under 40 for them though.   If a young good looking woman applied to manage my office or storages,  I wouldn't hire her.

I hire a high school boy ever year to do things around my businesses.  They pull weeds, collect rent and do office computer data entry, irrigate my fields, and whatever other experience I can provide the kid.  Especially if it is a smart hard working kid, then I try to give them exposure to business decisions and anything else I think is valuable.  I would never hire a high school girl, not that any ever apply.  

Now if it were a professional atmosphere with many employees I would hire woman and in fact I would give them preference over men.  They work harder in my experience and they do it for less money.

I would also never go out to a meal with her or be alone with her in a room.  Which is unfair because she wouldn't have the same access to me as the other male employees.  That is just tough shit in today's atmosphere.

 

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There’s been some overreach but overall I don’t know if that overreach has hurt the movement or not. Only time will tell. 

On 12/1/2016 at 12:26 PM, WyomingCoog said:

I own a vehicle likely worth more than everything you own combined and just flew first class (including a ticket for a 2 1/2 year old), round trip to Las Vegas and I'm not 35 yet. When you accomplish something outside of finishing a book, let me know. When's the last time you saw a 2 year old fly first class in their own seat? Don't tell me about elite.  

28 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

I’d happily compare IQ’s with you any day of the week.

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People who were already adverse to letting women in to their little fiefdom are going to use this as an excuse. I'm not sure it is going to be much more than that though. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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1 hour ago, Bob said:

It's been terrible for due process. It's pretty sickening to hear people say "I believe women". Why is a woman inherently more believable or trustworthy than a man?

WOW

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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A few thoughts, though I am not at all able to definitively state whether I think it's a helpful or hurtful thing overall to equality or women's rights or whatever. As of now, I would probably say that it's helpful in some ways, hurtful in others. 

-I am legitimately troubled by the performative nature of this stuff lately, especially on social media. It ignores the particularities of each instance, and it also lends itself to a kind of puritanical vigor that seems eerily similar to witch hunts and inquisitions. (I initially used the word 'hysteria' instead of vigor, but I have a keen awareness of how loaded that word is historically and how it is currently used to discredit credible voices. But I think, in a vacuum, the word would fit)

-The idea that #MeToo is a singular movement probably serves its critics more than the people trying to affect some kind of change, as they have a large well to draw from and can make declarative statements about things that are otherwise pretty unrelated. For instance, I don't consider the Title IX stuff on university campuses to be linked much if at all to sexual harassment and assault in Hollywood. And yet, I bet there is a lot of #MeToo commentary on the Devos proposal to change Title IX.

-Hash Tag activism is criticized in other arenas, and I think those criticisms are valid here too. I think the superficial, hit-and-run nature of attempting to bring about social change using social media is probably a bigger problem for its proponents than any ideological problems. It allows you to help ruin someone without even looking at their face, but it also makes your cause more forgettable, IMO. People like to point to these things lately as great because they seem to kind of just emerge, and they exist without any central organizing structure or principle. But actual changes require those things to persist in the face of resistance. 

-To some extent, I feel like this whole thing is either causing or the effect of a subtle but significant shift in sexual norms among young people. And those norms are NOT going from 'It's OK to rape or harass' to 'It's not OK to rape or harass.' It seems that there is a shift away from a kind of accepted and unspoken give-and-take between men and women to a clearly delineated, rigid list of rules that's moving sex and relationships away from something like a jazz ensemble (improvised, based on chemistry and decisions made on the fly) to something like a baroque chamber piece (very rigid, no interaction, all driven by the quarter notes on the sheet). I may be reading this incorrectly, as I haven't been single for like 15 years now so I am an outsider looking in. But even if it is true, and if I believe it is a bad thing (which I probably do), I also don't believe it's any of my business because each generation gets to decide how it wants to set the rules for sex.

-In a lot of instances, I've found the "Try not to be a dick" rule in business and relationships to be highly effective, and I haven't seen that change much. But I'm also not trying to get laid anymore.

-A lot of the guys (and yes, they are guys) who are actively and publicly opposed to most of this stuff I've come across in my life are dicks and misogynists. This is especially true of the dudes I know who work in the financial world and at law firms. This last one gives me pause and forces me to think more than I otherwise would about my stances on this, to the extent that I have any.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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1 hour ago, smltwnrckr said:

A few thoughts, though I am not at all able to definitively state whether I think it's a helpful or hurtful thing overall to equality or women's rights or whatever. As of now, I would probably say that it's helpful in some ways, hurtful in others. 

-I am legitimately troubled by the performative nature of this stuff lately, especially on social media. It ignores the particularities of each instance, and it also lends itself to a kind of puritanical vigor that seems eerily similar to witch hunts and inquisitions. (I initially used the word 'hysteria' instead of vigor, but I have a keen awareness of how loaded that word is historically and how it is currently used to discredit credible voices. But I think, in a vacuum, the word would fit)

-The idea that #MeToo is a singular movement probably serves its critics more than the people trying to affect some kind of change, as they have a large well to draw from and can make declarative statements about things that are otherwise pretty unrelated. For instance, I don't consider the Title IX stuff on university campuses to be linked much if at all to sexual harassment and assault in Hollywood. And yet, I bet there is a lot of #MeToo commentary on the Devos proposal to change Title IX.

-Hash Tag activism is criticized in other arenas, and I think those criticisms are valid here too. I think the superficial, hit-and-run nature of attempting to bring about social change using social media is probably a bigger problem for its proponents than any ideological problems. It allows you to help ruin someone without even looking at their face, but it also makes your cause more forgettable, IMO. People like to point to these things lately as great because they seem to kind of just emerge, and they exist without any central organizing structure or principle. But actual changes require those things to persist in the face of resistance. 

-To some extent, I feel like this whole thing is either causing or the effect of a subtle but significant shift in sexual norms among young people. And those norms are NOT going from 'It's OK to rape or harass' to 'It's not OK to rape or harass.' It seems that there is a shift away from a kind of accepted and unspoken give-and-take between men and women to a clearly delineated, rigid list of rules that's moving sex and relationships away from something like a jazz ensemble (improvised, based on chemistry and decisions made on the fly) to something like a baroque chamber piece (very rigid, no interaction, all driven by the quarter notes on the sheet). I may be reading this incorrectly, as I haven't been single for like 15 years now so I am an outsider looking in. But even if it is true, and if I believe it is a bad thing (which I probably do), I also don't believe it's any of my business because each generation gets to decide how it wants to set the rules for sex.

-In a lot of instances, I've found the "Try not to be a dick" rule in business and relationships to be highly effective, and I haven't seen that change much. But I'm also not trying to get laid anymore.

-A lot of the guys (and yes, they are guys) who are actively and publicly opposed to most of this stuff I've come across in my life are dicks and misogynists. This is especially true of the dudes I know who work in the financial world and at law firms. This last one gives me pause and forces me to think more than I otherwise would about my stances on this, to the extent that I have any.

Your final two paragraphs deliver the goods. I’m not sure how effective deliberating on the minutia of human interactions is when examining this movement historically or moving forward. What keeps you out of sexual harassment trouble most effectively is acting like a decent human being toward whatever gender it is that you are attracted to. This is particularly true if you are a male attracted to females and is perhaps even more particularly true if you are a male in a position of power. 

None of the above means that we as a society shouldn’t dive more deeply into what should (loaded word there) constitute appropriate rules of engagement between men and women—I’ll state it that way because this is the overwhelming relationship associated with Me Too—but, as a man, if you treat women fairly and decently, particularly those you have power over, and if you are attracted to a woman, you clearly communicate your interest and are able to read her signals correctly, you should avoid problems. If you have power over the woman you are attracted to, you need to question the appropriateness of pursuing that attraction. 

If none of this resonates with you, you’ve got some problems. 

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5 hours ago, Old_SD_Dude said:

I go on multi-day business trips with women half my age and have no problems whatsoever. 

It is like a lot of things.  I have no fire insure on my office building, because it is an old building and 10 years of fire insurance premium is more than the building is worth.  I will have no problems until it burns down and someone dies in the fire.

You will have no problems what so ever, until you have problems.  Then they will be big problems.

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2 hours ago, Posturedoc said:

 I’m not sure how effective deliberating on the minutia of human interactions is when examining this movement historically or moving forward. What keeps you out of sexual harassment trouble most effectively is acting like a decent human being toward whatever gender it is that you are attracted to. This is particularly true if you are a male attracted to females and is perhaps even more particularly true if you are a male in a position of power. 

I don't necessarily disagree, especially when it comes to people you work with or work around. But I also have seen more than a few instances now of the #MeToo folks targeting people over specifics within relationships made "public" after they deteriorate and/or a specific instance of two people using poor judgement and/or stumbling through the dating process in a specific instance. I think a Chris Hardwick or Aziz Ansari is much different than a Harvey Weinetien or a Bill Cosby. Even guys who aren't jerks can have a hard time navigating this stuff. But again, I haven't had to do it in so long that I admit I may be way off here.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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53 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

I don't necessarily disagree, especially when it comes to people you work with or work around. But I also have seen more than a few instances now of the #MeToo folks targeting people over specifics within relationships made "public" after they deteriorate and/or a specific instance of two people using poor judgement and/or stumbling through the dating process in a specific instance. I think a Chris Hardwick or Aziz Ansari is much different than a Harvey Weinetien or a Bill Cosby. Even guys who aren't jerks can have a hard time navigating this stuff. But again, I haven't had to do it in so long that I admit I may be way off here.

I don’t think you’re way off, I think you’re way on (duuude!). I love the written medium, but struggle to condense all of my thoughts into something readable that isn’t so long that folks either get bored reading as I lay everything out in excruciating detail or lose the thread of my thoughts for the same reason. I earned a reputation as Noveldoc (or Posterdick, depending on how animated the discussion or how delusional the opposing poster—often Convert, so that should give you a baseline on the type) some years past on Nevada’s home board. I haven’t posted like that in these here parts. 

Back to the issue under discussion. There will always be exceptions; good intentions and good behavior won’t save you from all possible accusations, even in the case of a once flaming hot and solid relationship that has a bitter outcome for at least one party who can’t move on without exacting some level of revenge. Most of us probably know somebody who we believe has undeservedly suffered through some level of that. I also agree with blues that there is some level of risk for even the most noble individual (in or out of power, but likely far more risk for the power holder) in traveling solo with a female employee/subordinate/co-worker. Having now agreed on that point, it’s my belief that the risk is still very low if you act appropriately, even in these times of possible greater risk (for guys). 

In summary, if you don’t make unwanted sexual advances, don’t abuse your position of power or simply have a firm personal rule to never pursue a relationship—one nighter or one with the potential to span months or years—with women you work with, especially those over whom you have power, your potential for trouble is damn small. 

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