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So is Nancy Pelosi a shoo-in for Speaker?

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5 minutes ago, renoskier said:

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing, just don't give a shit about the "why".

Of course, the only reason "why" Trump wanted to repeal the ACA was because it was Obama's. Good chance he doesn't even know what ACA stands for, much less how it works.

Shit, I can't really argue with this.  And I tried.

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16 minutes ago, Rocket said:

I hope not, one day we will be rid of the Corporate Democrats like Pelosi and we will have strong Progressive Democrat leadership who are not beholden to the Corporations.

This here my friends is a shining example of the democrats occupancy of the political center.

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1 hour ago, CPslograd said:

Stop with this nonsense.  You say this every election.

As if democrats have moved to the center.  They haven't, if they owned the vast middle as you claim they would have a large majority in the House, have the Senate, and the Executive.  They picked up about the historical norm in the House, just like the GOP performed about as they should have given the map in the Senate. 

And as concerning as the suburbs should be for Republicans, so for democrats should be the fact that they lost in Florida and Ohio.

GOPer's moving to NP & even Dem are the centrists - it's the Bernie faction that has moved the needle to the left - And if you looked at results yesterday, lot's of "progressive" ballot questions passed like min wage increases, marijuana legalization, felon voting rights etc. - those things passed by good margins even in states where the GOP had some wins like Florida (Felon voting rights) - And in a lot of states the vote was close and races still aren't decided.

But to deny the GOP has voting numbers in decline almost everywhere outside their hardcore base states and that progressive policies are being passed by ballot initiative (bypassing GOP lawmakers) then it's just denial of the obvious - and for full disclosure, NP voter registration is gaining more in pretty much every jurisdiction but in lot's of states the GOP is running 3rd in voter registration.

Additionally the obituaries cut into the GOP base every single day :(

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8 minutes ago, CPslograd said:

This here my friends is a shining example of the democrats occupancy of the political center.

We're coming and we're going to crush the corrupt by holding their feet to the fire. It's time to restore America and hold the people accountable for the corruption and harm they've caused to millions of Americans.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, CPslograd said:

No, that's another rationalization.  Trump isn't some right winger.  Cruz is a right winger.  The moderates had actually done pretty well.  Look at all the seats we had picked up over Obama's presidency.  Those weren't all right wingers.  Ryan and McConnell aren't right wingers, and they were in charge, not the Freedom Caucus.  And regardless of what SleepingGiant thinks of Kevin, he isn't hard right, never was, neither was Bill Thomas before him.

I'm with laworfaithful, after that failed vote is when a lot of incumbents including Ryan started announcing their retirements.

You guys just want to let John off the hook because you're glad he killed repeal....

Trump is a right-wing nationalist. He is no moderate, even if his populism leads him to some common policy ground with the left-wing populists. Is Bernie Sanders a moderate, too, because he agrees with Trump on trade? Ryan and McConnell are establishment, but they aren't moderates any more than Nancy Pelosi is a moderate. McCain is a moderate. Romney is a moderate. The Clintons are moderates.

To your other point, Ryan announced his retirement almost a year after the repeal vote. Same with Corker. Flake would've been closest, and he sort of had issues with Trump long before McCain gave the thumbs down. McCain did what he did, which I know angers the right. But it didn't matter in shaping of the party.

It's not like Republicans are alone in this. Moderates have little place in today's politics.

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15 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

Trump is a right-wing nationalist. He is no moderate, even if his populism leads him to some common policy ground with the left-wing populists. Is Bernie Sanders a moderate, too, because he agrees with Trump on trade? Ryan and McConnell are establishment, but they aren't moderates any more than Nancy Pelosi is a moderate. McCain is a moderate. Romney is a moderate. The Clintons are moderates.

To your other point, Ryan announced his retirement almost a year after the repeal vote. Same with Corker. Flake would've been closest, and he sort of had issues with Trump long before McCain gave the thumbs down. McCain did what he did, which I know angers the right. But it didn't matter in shaping of the party.

It's not like Republicans are alone in this. Moderates have little place in today's politics.

What are the ideological differences between McCain and Ryan that would make you call one a moderate and the other the equivalent of Pelosi? 

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15 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

Trump is a right-wing nationalist. He is no moderate, even if his populism leads him to some common policy ground with the left-wing populists. Is Bernie Sanders a moderate, too, because he agrees with Trump on trade? Ryan and McConnell are establishment, but they aren't moderates any more than Nancy Pelosi is a moderate. McCain is a moderate. Romney is a moderate. The Clintons are moderates.

To your other point, Ryan announced his retirement almost a year after the repeal vote. Same with Corker. Flake would've been closest, and he sort of had issues with Trump long before McCain gave the thumbs down. McCain did what he did, which I know angers the right. But it didn't matter in shaping of the party.

It's not like Republicans are alone in this. Moderates have little place in today's politics.

What are the ideological differences between McCain and Ryan that would make you call one a moderate and the other the equivalent of Pelosi? 

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1 hour ago, Rocket said:

We're coming and we're going to crush the corrupt by holding their feet to the fire. It's time to restore America and hold the people accountable for the corruption and harm they've caused to millions of Americans.

Trumpsocialist?

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Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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1 hour ago, NVGiant said:

Trump is a right-wing nationalist. He is no moderate, even if his populism leads him to some common policy ground with the left-wing populists. Is Bernie Sanders a moderate, too, because he agrees with Trump on trade? Ryan and McConnell are establishment, but they aren't moderates any more than Nancy Pelosi is a moderate. McCain is a moderate. Romney is a moderate. The Clintons are moderates.

To your other point, Ryan announced his retirement almost a year after the repeal vote. Same with Corker. Flake would've been closest, and he sort of had issues with Trump long before McCain gave the thumbs down. McCain did what he did, which I know angers the right. But it didn't matter in shaping of the party.

It's not like Republicans are alone in this. Moderates have little place in today's politics.

His trade po!icy is traditional democrat, and not that different in substance from someone like gephart.

His social policy has been to stay away from those issues essentially.  Never talks about abortion, literally like never.

The one issue is immigration.  Obviously there is the tone and tweets as well.  But to say he is right wing is inaccurate, completely inaccurate.

in regards to Ryan, he is a Jack Kemp disciple, who was the quintessential moderate of his day.  To insinuate that Hillary is centrist and Ryan is a right winger is flat nuts.  As is equivalating Ryan and Pelosi.  Just look at their districts.

and McConnell and McCain have almost no policy differences at all.  

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2 hours ago, CPslograd said:

What are the ideological differences between McCain and Ryan that would make you call one a moderate and the other the equivalent of Pelosi? 

Tone, tenor, and independence mostly, and willingness to speak against his own party while working across the aisle for things that mattered to him. McCain was conservative. But at times he would buck party orthodoxy. Policy-wise, he voted against the Bush tax cuts. He spoke out against Bush’s torture program. Spearheaded Campaign finance reform with Feingold. He ran on cap and trade in 08 and years before that authored a climate change bill. He was also a relative moderate in terms of immigration.

Ryan showed little of that in his time on the national stage. He ended up being very much a party man, when he wasn’t being celebrated by the Heritage Foundation for authoring a budget plan that could’ve come from an Ayn Rand novel. Like I said, Ryan isn’t an extremist but he isn’t a moderate either.

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1 hour ago, CPslograd said:

His trade po!icy is traditional democrat, and not that different in substance from someone like gephart.

His social policy has been to stay away from those issues essentially.  Never talks about abortion, literally like never.

The one issue is immigration.  Obviously there is the tone and tweets as well.  But to say he is right wing is inaccurate, completely inaccurate.

in regards to Ryan, he is a Jack Kemp disciple, who was the quintessential moderate of his day.  To insinuate that Hillary is centrist and Ryan is a right winger is flat nuts.  As is equivalating Ryan and Pelosi.  Just look at their districts.

and McConnell and McCain have almost no policy differences at all.  

It’s not inaccurate. He is a right-wing nationalist and a populist. Populism wdoesn’t make you a liberal, whether left-wingers agree on trade or not. Who cares if he hasn’t spoken about abortion. He’s amoral. His views on those kind of issues are inconsequential. Immigration and economic nationalism defines his policy, and those are extremes. His tone takes it even further. 

I didn’t say Ryan was a right-winger. He’s an establishment conservative. Which is neither extreme nor moderate. Hell, at a time when Steve King can continually win re-election he probably is moderate. Maybe I should reconsider Ryan.

 Bill Clinton was a moderate, and Hillary ran left in 16, but was pretty moderate as a senator. She’s also a shitty candidate.

And McConnell ... come on. He is a party hack. Not a moderate. Harry Reid was once a moderate, too. He ended up the same way McConnell ended up.

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3 hours ago, UNLV2001 said:

GOPer's moving to NP & even Dem are the centrists - it's the Bernie faction that has moved the needle to the left - And if you looked at results yesterday, lot's of "progressive" ballot questions passed like min wage increases, marijuana legalization, felon voting rights etc. - those things passed by good margins even in states where the GOP had some wins like Florida (Felon voting rights) - And in a lot of states the vote was close and races still aren't decided.

But to deny the GOP has voting numbers in decline almost everywhere outside their hardcore base states and that progressive policies are being passed by ballot initiative (bypassing GOP lawmakers) then it's just denial of the obvious - and for full disclosure, NP voter registration is gaining more in pretty much every jurisdiction but in lot's of states the GOP is running 3rd in voter registration.

Additionally the obituaries cut into the GOP base every single day :(

Boomers are becoming seniors faster than the reaper can take them.

Well, lets see how this theorem that the GOP is a dying breed due to demagraphics has panned out so far this century, which is now about 20% over.

Potus..... GOP won 3 of 5

House....GOP has won 7 of 10

Senate ....GOP has won 6 of 10

 

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44 minutes ago, NVGiant said:

Tone, tenor, and independence mostly, and willingness to speak against his own party while working across the aisle for things that mattered to him. McCain was conservative. But at times he would buck party orthodoxy. Policy-wise, he voted against the Bush tax cuts. He spoke out against Bush’s torture program. Spearheaded Campaign finance reform with Feingold. He ran on cap and trade in 08 and years before that authored a climate change bill. He was also a relative moderate in terms of immigration.

Ryan showed little of that in his time on the national stage. He ended up being very much a party man, when he wasn’t being celebrated by the Heritage Foundation for authoring a budget plan that could’ve come from an Ayn Rand novel. Like I said, Ryan isn’t an extremist but he isn’t a moderate either.

Well, for one thing, Ryan and McConnell are the leadership, so its a completely different role.  Ryan especially, and McConnell mostly too, were moderates on immigration, thats why the populists hate them.

Campaign finance, was pretty much a way to run for president in 2000.  Cap and trade, pretty much the same thing in 2008, especially in what was known to be a tough environment for the GOP.  Voting against the tax cuts.... Maybe a little bitterness towards Dubya there, but Ill mostly give you that one.

The truth is dems liked McCain sometimes because he would bomb on Republicans, and Ill grant he was slightly left of McConnell, but really pretty narrow difference.  I dont really think he was left of Ryan.  The gap between Schumer and Sanders, or Bill and Hillary is way bigger.  I like how you snuck in "the Clintons" as if they were ideologically similar. 

I liked McCain for different reasons than you point out.

 

 

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44 minutes ago, CPslograd said:

Well, for one thing, Ryan and McConnell are the leadership, so its a completely different role.  Ryan especially, and McConnell mostly too, were moderates on immigration, thats why the populists hate them.

Campaign finance, was pretty much a way to run for president in 2000.  Cap and trade, pretty much the same thing in 2008, especially in what was known to be a tough environment for the GOP.  Voting against the tax cuts.... Maybe a little bitterness towards Dubya there, but Ill mostly give you that one.

The truth is dems liked McCain sometimes because he would bomb on Republicans, and Ill grant he was slightly left of McConnell, but really pretty narrow difference.  I dont really think he was left of Ryan.  The gap between Schumer and Sanders, or Bill and Hillary is way bigger.  I like how you snuck in "the Clintons" as if they were ideologically similar. 

I liked McCain for different reasons than you point out.

 

 

McCain-Feingold was passed in 2002. Again, though, you seem to be defining a moderate based solely on a narrow set of policy stances. That’s fair and obviously policy is is a big part of it, but I don’t think that’s the whole game. The fact that McCain bombed on Republicans from time to time, as you put it, is why he was a moderate. If McConnell is a moderate then you’re defining every establishment politician as a moderate. Which I would never do.

This could come down to semantics, but to me there are many degrees between a centrist and an extremist. McCain wasn’t a centrist, but I don’t know many on the right or left who would put McConnell, and perhaps to a lesser extent Ryan, on the same ideological plane. But I will grant you that the gap is narrower than sanders and someone like Schumer, but I view Sanders as fairly extreme left (by somewhat mainstream standards anyway). The gap would be closer to Bubba v. Pelosi, IMO. Policy they’re similar, but definitely Pelosi is further left.

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20 hours ago, SleepingGiantsFan said:

The "entire" economy? That's just a bit of a stretch. Although our accountant told my wife and I we might save as much as $10K on our income tax next year, one of my best friends was laid off a week and a half ago. His profession is metal fabrication and his company could no longer afford to pay for the aluminum and steel that my friend and his crew of six used in their work. My point is it's much too soon to make blanket statements about Trump's economic policies as you have. Judges? If you're a follower of Ingraham, Hannity & Gang and want to see Roe v. Wade overturned, I can understand your feeling that way. Since I want to see abortions continue to be available at least during the first trimester, I don't. As to immigration, as I've said, I neither agree with the Democrats on open borders nor on sanctuary cities and states. However, that doesn't mean American citizens and our military should be headed down to the border with AK47s in tow.

Yes my wife and I are making more money and paying less taxes too.  Why the fk would I not want that?  So others can get breaks instead?  
If your friend had been laid off 8 years ago he might not find a job.  Todays market is great for job seekers.  If you have some skills, you can probably find a job that may even pay more than you had before. If you don't have skills you can still find a good job in many places.  In N.Dakota unskilled guys working in the oil patch can make over $100k.  Most jobs aren't like that but there are jobs out there.  

I do not support abortion at all, but I also am not keen on the idea of banning it outright.  I don't think there is any worry there for people.  Late term abortion, and other restrictions may end up happening, but only in some states that want to do that.  You need to keep in mind, if California can make whatever the fk laws they want, then other states can too!  

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14 hours ago, NVGiant said:

McCain-Feingold was passed in 2002. Again, though, you seem to be defining a moderate based solely on a narrow set of policy stances. That’s fair and obviously policy is is a big part of it, but I don’t think that’s the whole game. The fact that McCain bombed on Republicans from time to time, as you put it, is why he was a moderate. If McConnell is a moderate then you’re defining every establishment politician as a moderate. Which I would never do.

This could come down to semantics, but to me there are many degrees between a centrist and an extremist. McCain wasn’t a centrist, but I don’t know many on the right or left who would put McConnell, and perhaps to a lesser extent Ryan, on the same ideological plane. But I will grant you that the gap is narrower than sanders and someone like Schumer, but I view Sanders as fairly extreme left (by somewhat mainstream standards anyway). The gap would be closer to Bubba v. Pelosi, IMO. Policy they’re similar, but definitely Pelosi is further left.

Bubba is WAY WAY WAY WAY right of Pelosi.  Again, look at their districts.  Bubba got elected governor in Arkansas.  Comeon Giant, you're killing me here.

Schumer and McConnell are equivalent, I'd grant that. 

Sidenote, yes I know when McCain fiendgold was passed, that doesn't change the fact that campaign finance was McCain's "hook" for his campaign.

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20 hours ago, Rocket said:

We're coming and we're going to crush the corrupt by holding their feet to the fire. It's time to restore America and hold the people accountable for the corruption and harm they've caused to millions of Americans.

You realize it's people that are corrupt, right?  With or without corporations, the corruption will remain.

The World Needs More Cowboys!

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2 hours ago, CPslograd said:

Bubba is WAY WAY WAY WAY right of Pelosi.  Again, look at their districts.  Bubba got elected governor in Arkansas.  Comeon Giant, you're killing me here.

Schumer and McConnell are equivalent, I'd grant that. 

 Sidenote, yes I know when McCain fiendgold was passed, that doesn't change the fact that campaign finance was McCain's "hook" for his campaign.

Way way way left of Clinton? Not really. Despite the right's demagoguery of Pelosi, she is right of Sanders and left of Bubba. For instance, she got lambasted by the unions for supporting the original NAFTA, if you recall. 

He may have campaigned on campaign finance in 2000, but considering he followed through on the promise despite losing the nomination, I don't see how you can say he just did for the campaign. I can tell you that The Turtle hasn't exactly been a champion of campaign finance. 

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