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pokebball

Is this fair?

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1 minute ago, pokebball said:

Apparently fires you up too

Actually, no. I don't think much about it. I only learn about these sports when I hear a conservative dude complain about how it's not fair that some trans chick won one of them.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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2 minutes ago, pokebball said:

So a conservative dude fires you up?

1 minute ago, modestobulldog said:

Yep

I'm going fishing with one in a couple days, so I'll report back to you.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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1 hour ago, Jack Bauer said:

I guess I don't know his posting style that well.  I'll pay better attention.

I'd say the bottom line with how I feel on this is that I'm for fair competition among people of equal athletic ability, and as you guys have debated on the thread, men outpace women with regards to this stuff.  That doesn't mean that anyone is invested in the women's world championships of cycling.  It means it bugs people that there's a perceived advantage from a competitor, and society has to play along with it or risk being called a bigot.  I don't think it's fair, and that doesn't make me a bigot.  I don't care what hormones they've been on to try to equal the playing field.  They still had years of testosterone stimulation and musculoskeletal advantage over any female competitor, and thus, should have to compete with men.  Have a trans division, imo.  Biology matters, and I don't think it helps with inclusivity to ignore that, in particular from the organizations that are in charge of these athletic competitions.

He is deadpan snark in a poster. It is a good point that posters  who have never commented on women's rights one way or the other really really really give a shit about the fairness of middle aged women's cycling out of the blue though... it leads one to suspect that concern for women's rights is not at the forefront of their motivations. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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2 hours ago, happycamper said:

Obviously not and I've made that point multiple times. However having been on the mediocre side of JV in cross country and on the crappy side of varsity in swimming I've gotten my ass kicked in enough events to recognize that while the top of women doesn't compete with the top of men, the top ~5% of women have a LOT of sports where they destroy the middle distribution of men. 

 

Right, golf is a lot closer to competitive than football or basketball. I can't imagine the best female football team ever assembled beating our high school football team. OTOH a college women's golf team would beat a high school boy's golf team IIRC. 

What is the middle distribution of men.  Like the middle distribution of all men total, or all male athletes in that sport?

Since we've got some golf and tennis hypotheticals going on here, I'll give you some real stories. I was a pretty good at tennis in HS, like maybe top 10 in Vegas, but not good enough to play D-1. Maybe D-3 or bottom of a D-2 team. One of the instructors at a tennis camp thing I would attend from time to time attend had just graduated from a D-1 college and was on the tennis team.  We played a set and I won 6-0.  She cried and wouldn't talk to me afterwards. And I was a 17 year old weakling, probably 5'9" and 135 lbs. She couldn't handle anything I hit with any pace or spin. The difference was huge and insurmountable.

I got pretty good at golf after HS as well. Was a little better than scratch, which by the way, is nowhere near good enough to do anything with professionally. I'm a dude with little kids and a job and I've played with female college golfers and I whooped that ass . Playing from their tees.  And I hit irons off most tees because it was friendly so I wasn't 50 yards in front of them all the time.  Played with an LPGA member once too and I honestly felt I could beat her most the time. She wasn't elite, but still.  

And since I'm bragging about beating up on girls, I also dropped 50 against Rancho in basketball...that's a joke. some of you might get it haha.

 

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3 minutes ago, toonkee said:

What is the middle distribution of men.  Like the middle distribution of all men total, or all male athletes in that sport?

That gets tough to say. The best girls in our XC teams were better than the middle distribution of boys on the team. Hell our best girl would have been the #2 overall runner. It gets tough to say all men total because I have zero idea how good the kids who didn't do cross country would have been. Given the one wrestler kid who has a varsity wrestler and was more or less as good as me at running... our teams skewed towards people who were going to be good at it anyway.

3 minutes ago, toonkee said:

Since we've got some golf and tennis hypotheticals going on here, I'll give you some real stories. I was a pretty good at tennis in HS, like maybe top 10 in Vegas, but not good enough to play D-1. Maybe D-3 or bottom of a D-2 team. One of the instructors at a tennis camp thing I would attend from time to time attend had just graduated from a D-1 college and was on the tennis team.  We played a set and I won 6-0.  She cried and wouldn't talk to me afterwards. And I was a 17 year old weakling, probably 5'9" and 135 lbs. She couldn't handle anything I hit with any pace or spin. The difference was huge and insurmountable.

Damn, that's good to know. I remember Stephie Graf and thought that tennis would have been more like the closer equal sports. 

3 minutes ago, toonkee said:

I got pretty good at golf after HS as well. Was a little better than scratch, which by the way, is nowhere near good enough to do anything with professionally. I'm a dude with little kids and a job and I've played with female college golfers and I whooped that ass . Playing from their tees.  And I hit irons off most tees because it was friendly so I wasn't 50 yards in front of them all the time.  Played with an LPGA member once too and I honestly felt I could beat her most the time. She wasn't elite, but still.  

Interesting too. I remember talking to kids in Wyo who golfed in hs and the girl's golf team at GU and the girl's golf team was WAY better than the boys at Wyo. of course... might be representative of the talent in Wyoming.

As I said, ranging from the bottom edge of the kids who were good at swimming to the good edge of the kids who were crappy at XC, my experience was that the girls who are great at a sport annihilate the guys who are merely good. I've mentioned before that I moonlight as a group fitness instructor and it is always weird to me how there can be women instructors who are ripped, who have a background in power lifting with legs that are obviously stronger than mine, who can beat or at least push me at cardio/plyo/squat stuff... but with my half assed twice a week strength routine, I can annihilate them when it comes to push ups and pull ups (I go for endurance, balance, and agility instead of power). It also gets hard to judge at the gym because I tend to be better at push ups and pull ups than 90% of the guys I come across too... the benefits of being 5'8 and 148 means each pullup is a lot easier than the 6' 200lb guys who can bench me under the table... so being better than all the women I come across isn't exactly an indictment on women.

3 minutes ago, toonkee said:

And since I'm bragging about beating up on girls, I also dropped 50 against Rancho in basketball...that's a joke. some of you might get it haha.

 

 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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5 hours ago, happycamper said:

Well obviously. Blues just only has experience in literally the two mainstream sports where all men are going to dominate all women(apparently soccer and I'm going to guess that hockey is this way as well but blues wasn't mentioning them). Others with broader experience show that in other sports- bat and ball sports (at least pitching), swimming, distance/middle distance running and given the battle of the sexes, tennis - the best women annihilate the middle range of men. Blues just doesn't have the life experience to know that - I would not be surprised if his high school didn't even have a swim team - but blues has lived such a full life, and lives amongst such bumpkins, he has a hard time remembering that while others may not have had as many experiences as him they have certainly had different ones which give them insights that he is lacking. 

As an aside on baseball, we ran the math when I took physics on fast pitch softball pitchers. The batters in fast pitch softball actually have less time to hit the ball than MLB batters do. Given how baseball works I wouldn't be surprised if some of the best women couldn't at least make AA teams hitting if they were machines at getting on base.

Every sport men would dominate women.

Most sports high school men would dominate the best women.  which was what I am pointing out.  

My sister competed in the top swim team in Sacramento.  Our little local swim team was fun and I was never very good but I could crush my sister or any girl.

There is no sport women are competitive with men. None.  Not baseball not long distance running.   Just the facts stalker.

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44 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

Every sport men would dominate women.

Most sports high school men would dominate the best women.  which was what I am pointing out.  

My sister competed in the top swim team in Sacramento.  Our little local swim team was fun and I was never very good but I could crush my any girl.

That is not representative of a real swim team. Trust me. I was at least somewhat good.  The "good" girls beat me. The great girls annihilated me. Here's a good example, it is the results for the boys and girls at conference where I swam.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1O31KYXddMKq_rldC7rDvWh9RoXYpg0go/view

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1h0vUif5dqR4DofOu6aGJ7AGRIphfPfa2/view

The best girl at the 200 free would be the ~15th best boy. That's pretty impressive, there are 13 schools in that conference, so that means that the best girl in conference is on average the 2nd best 200 free swimmer on one of those teams - maybe the 3rd best on the top teams. The best 200 IM girl's swimmer would have gotten 8th in conference, meaning she would have been the #1 IMer on 1/3 the boy's teams. With 50 free, unsurprisingly, women do worse with the best one being ~20th, making her again the 2nd to 3rd best freestyler  on an average boy's team. The best women's 100 fly swimmer would have been the 6th best men's 100 fly swimmer; on average, she's better than the number 1 fly guy on most teams (this really surprised me. I have to brute force it with fly so I thought that men would have the most advantage here. That's a girl with some STRONG abs. By contrast, breaststroke, the stroke I most associate with women competing with men, was actually the least competitive. Spoiler: happy sucked at breaststroke and was decent at fly). The trend continues like this, the best women vary from about the 15th best boy - so about the average #2 placer on a team - to the 6th, so the best placer on over half of teams. The relays hit about the 12th place, which shows that it isn't one girl that is skewing the distribution; the average best 1,2,3,4 girls on a team competes to beats the average best 3,4,5,6 boys of a team. 

If you were truly "never any good" - or if there was any girl competition- you would have been flat out embarrassed trying to compete with girls. Given your history I'm inclined to say that you're just making this up. 

Quote

There is no sport women are competitive with men. None.  Not baseball not long distance running.   Just the facts stalker.

Were we arguing that? or were we arguing that a decent high school team could wreck the best women's teams?

I agreed with you on the strength stuff... but blues, I mentioned the sports I participate in. The women are unreal at them. I think it would do you good to participate in a local sprint triathlon.

 

Edit: going in to it even more, the top girl's team from that meet would have scored in the top half of the boy's meet (with diving excluded of course). 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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2 hours ago, smltwnrckr said:

I never called anyone a bigot, and I never said biology doesn't matter. I never even said I thought it was fair. But I don't think, in any way, it is a straw man to suggest that it's very interesting that certain people who don't otherwise think about obscure women's sports suddenly care very deeply about the integrity of competition in these particular events when we insert trans people.

I'm not saying you did.  I'm saying that's the route people go when you voice any sort of problem with this stuff.

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1 hour ago, happycamper said:

He is deadpan snark in a poster. It is a good point that posters  who have never commented on women's rights one way or the other really really really give a shit about the fairness of middle aged women's cycling out of the blue though... it leads one to suspect that concern for women's rights is not at the forefront of their motivations. 

I  just look at it from a biological/medical POV and it seems silly to me that they let trans men compete against women.  Women's rights?  I'm Mormon, so you know I don't care about that. /deadpan snark

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42 minutes ago, happycamper said:

That is not representative of a real swim team. Trust me. I was at least somewhat good.  The "good" girls beat me. The great girls annihilated me. Here's a good example, it is the results for the boys and girls at conference where I swam.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1O31KYXddMKq_rldC7rDvWh9RoXYpg0go/view

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1h0vUif5dqR4DofOu6aGJ7AGRIphfPfa2/view

The best girl at the 200 free would be the ~15th best boy. That's pretty impressive, there are 13 schools in that conference, so that means that the best girl in conference is on average the 2nd best 200 free swimmer on one of those teams - maybe the 3rd best on the top teams. The best 200 IM girl's swimmer would have gotten 8th in conference, meaning she would have been the #1 IMer on 1/3 the boy's teams. With 50 free, unsurprisingly, women do worse with the best one being ~20th, making her again the 2nd to 3rd best freestyler  on an average boy's team. The best women's 100 fly swimmer would have been the 6th best men's 100 fly swimmer; on average, she's better than the number 1 fly guy on most teams (this really surprised me. I have to brute force it with fly so I thought that men would have the most advantage here. That's a girl with some STRONG abs. By contrast, breaststroke, the stroke I most associate with women competing with men, was actually the least competitive. Spoiler: happy sucked at breaststroke and was decent at fly). The trend continues like this, the best women vary from about the 15th best boy - so about the average #2 placer on a team - to the 6th, so the best placer on over half of teams. The relays hit about the 12th place, which shows that it isn't one girl that is skewing the distribution; the average best 1,2,3,4 girls on a team competes to beats the average best 3,4,5,6 boys of a team. 

If you were truly "never any good" - or if there was any girl competition- you would have been flat out embarrassed trying to compete with girls. Given your history I'm inclined to say that you're just making this up. 

Were we arguing that? or were we arguing that a decent high school team could wreck the best women's teams?

I agreed with you on the strength stuff... but blues, I mentioned the sports I participate in. The women are unreal at them. I think it would do you good to participate in a local sprint triathlon.

 

Edit: going in to it even more, the top girl's team from that meet would have scored in the top half of the boy's meet (with diving excluded of course). 

I would be confident in saying the best high school boys team or person in the country would beat the best women’s team or person in their particular sport. 

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2 hours ago, happycamper said:

He is deadpan snark in a poster. It is a good point that posters  who have never commented on women's rights one way or the other really really really give a shit about the fairness of middle aged women's cycling out of the blue though... it leads one to suspect that concern for women's rights is not at the forefront of their motivations. 

And cycling of all sports. As if the field is ever level.

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1 hour ago, happycamper said:

That is not representative of a real swim team. Trust me. I was at least somewhat good.  The "good" girls beat me. The great girls annihilated me. Here's a good example, it is the results for the boys and girls at conference where I swam.

 

You weren't good if girls were beating you.   I was mediocre at best on our little swim team.  My sister swam on the top team in California and I never had trouble beating her in any stroke.  Men have a huge advantage in swimming, we are taller.  Which means we can swim faster.The Energy required to move in the water depends on the ration of height to width so men have an engineering advantage among all the other advantages when swimming.

I trust that you have no clue.

 

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19 minutes ago, soupslam1 said:

I would be confident in saying the best high school boys team or person in the country would beat the best women’s team or person in their particular sport. 

You'd have very misplaced confidence then.

The best boy, depends on the event (and the year). The best boy in 2000 was Phelps in the olympics; he swam that about 5 seconds faster than the woman's world record. By contrast this year's best 200 fly swimmer in high school did not hit the woman's world record (given the state of swimming, the women's world record is just the fastest time in the last year or so). Obviously the best swimmer in history makes a small difference, ha ha. It depends on the event as well; the best 100 backstroker from this year, IIRC, didn't come within a second and a half of the women's record (set I believe in 2017) and that's a lifetime in a 100 event. In general boys do better in freestyle and IM; girls hold their own in back and fly. 

The best team, nope.  Gets tough to compare because boy's high school is short course yards and international competition is long course meters. The biggest high school level LC meet is the Y's national championship (yes, there are USA swim clubs that are much faster. They serve multiple high schools and also allow college swimmers to compete at the junior national level. Not a reasonable comparison to what you're saying). The Y's national champ event had meet times of tens of seconds slower than the best women's team. Even the elite swim clubs, who feed in from dozens of high schools and have college kids compete on them until the day they turn 19, are a second or two faster than the fastest women's relays. 

9 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

You weren't good if girls were beating you.   I was mediocre at best on our little swim team.  My sister swam on the top team in California and I never had trouble beating her in any stroke.  Men have a huge advantage in swimming, we are taller.  Which means we can swim faster.The Energy required to move in the water depends on the ration of height to width so men have an engineering advantage among all the other advantages when swimming.

I trust that you have no clue.

 

Blues

You are lying.

 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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1 hour ago, Jack Bauer said:

I'm not saying you did.  I'm saying that's the route people go when you voice any sort of problem with this stuff.

It's hard to have a reasonable conversation about these things, to be sure. So you have a fair point. 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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19 minutes ago, happycamper said:

You'd have very misplaced confidence then.

The best boy, depends on the event (and the year). The best boy in 2000 was Phelps in the olympics; he swam that about 5 seconds faster than the woman's world record. By contrast this year's best 200 fly swimmer in high school did not hit the woman's world record (given the state of swimming, the women's world record is just the fastest time in the last year or so). Obviously the best swimmer in history makes a small difference, ha ha. It depends on the event as well; the best 100 backstroker from this year, IIRC, didn't come within a second and a half of the women's record (set I believe in 2017) and that's a lifetime in a 100 event. In general boys do better in freestyle and IM; girls hold their own in back and fly. 

The best team, nope.  Gets tough to compare because boy's high school is short course yards and international competition is long course meters. The biggest high school level LC meet is the Y's national championship (yes, there are USA swim clubs that are much faster. They serve multiple high schools and also allow college swimmers to compete at the junior national level. Not a reasonable comparison to what you're saying). The Y's national champ event had meet times of tens of seconds slower than the best women's team. Even the elite swim clubs, who feed in from dozens of high schools and have college kids compete on them until the day they turn 19, are a second or two faster than the fastest women's relays. 

Blues

You are lying.

 

First 5 seconds is an eternity that is probably more than half the length of a pool in a freestyle event and even more in slower races.

Second national swim clubs like my sister was on as a high schooner are the top high schooners in the nation.   Those boys probably beat National women records I imagine because you are equivocating on the subject.

Last, you cannot dispute in every sport there is no instance where men do not dominate women.  In most sports high school age males would dominate every level of female competition.   You are just a liar by trying to dispute this.

All the rest of this is just your dishonesty.   You call me a liar when the facts directly refute every claim you make. HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!

Here is another reality.  If an athletic young man even tries to play coed sports.  The male will have to moderate their effort so as not to hurt the females.  They are so non-competitive they can get hurt in the normal course of play.

 

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2 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

First 5 seconds is an eternity that is probably more than half the length of a pool in a freestyle event and even more in slower races.

Yes. And it was against the best single swimmer probably ever.

2 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

Second national swim clubs like my sister was on as a high schooner are the top high schooners in the nation.   Those boys probably beat National women records I imagine because you are equivocating on the subject.

Blues I literally posted what I found. Yes, national swim clubs are the top high schoolers in the nation. But... JFC blues. The girls national level swim clubs today would beat good high school swim teams. FFS I posted the literal meet results where the top girl team in a conference would have been in the top half of the boy's results in the same schools. Seriously are you this stupid?

2 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

Last, you cannot dispute in every sport there is no instance where men do not dominate women.  In most sports high school age males would dominate every level of female competition.   You are just a liar by trying to dispute this.

Where did I dispute this? I pointed out sports where you're wrong, and you lie because you have a pathological aversion to giving women any kind of credit. 

2 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

All the rest of this is just your dishonesty.   You call me a liar when the facts directly refute every claim you make. HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!

 

Blues, I posted the facts. You're the one who lies about your athleticism to further your narrative about women.

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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