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Happy Columbus Day!

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1 hour ago, Old_SD_Dude said:

There is a body of thought now that argues that Columbus really did not "rediscover" America because it was never forgotten. Portuguese fisherman plied the North Atlantic and occasionally took on supplies in Iceland and conversed with the locals. The Scandinavians likely never forgot about America (Vinland). There are medieval ledger entries of lumber shipments from Vinland, and there is archaeological evidence of 14th century wood that originated in what is now Canada. It's likely that Columbus had no doubt that there was land to the west.

The difference between the Scandinavians, the Portuguese (the Portuguese angle is debatable) and Spain is the Spanish consolidated their Discovery and exploited it. In doing so Spain gets the credit for discovering the New World. They had the vision others didn't.

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3 hours ago, Old_SD_Dude said:

There is a body of thought now that argues that Columbus really did not "rediscover" America because it was never forgotten. Portuguese fisherman plied the North Atlantic and occasionally took on supplies in Iceland and conversed with the locals. The Scandinavians likely never forgot about America (Vinland). There are medieval ledger entries of lumber shipments from Vinland, and there is archaeological evidence of 14th century wood that originated in what is now Canada. It's likely that Columbus had no doubt that there was land to the west.

While Colón may have had some reason to believe there was an unexplored land to the West, rather it be by way of a Portuguese fisherman or other means, that was not Columbus' intended target (he believed he was going to find a route to Japan). And the significance of Colón's voyage was not so much in the 'discovery' (a relative term for sure), but that it it was his voyage that opened up what became the first truly global economy in the Spanish Main and opened the doors for European colonialization (of the Americas). While the Vinland settlements left no indelible mark on the Americas or its people, by contrast Columbus' voyage was the first real domino to fall. And it led to the first European settlement that 'stuck' to this day (St. Augustine).

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2 hours ago, sean327 said:

The difference between the Scandinavians, the Portuguese (the Portuguese angle is debatable) and Spain is the Spanish consolidated their Discovery and exploited it. In doing so Spain gets the credit for discovering the New World. They had the vision others didn't.

You have an interesting definition of the word discover. My point was that the maritime community knew there was land across the Atlantic.

Portugal had a very substantial colonial empire, which included Brazil. 

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55 minutes ago, TheSanDiegan said:

While Colón may have had some reason to believe there was an unexplored land to the West, rather it be by way of a Portuguese fisherman or other means, that was not Columbus' intended target (he believed he was going to find a route to Japan). And the significance of Colón's voyage was not so much in the 'discovery' (a relative term for sure), but that it it was his voyage that opened up what became the first truly global economy in the Spanish Main and opened the doors for European colonialization (of the Americas). While the Vinland settlements left no indelible mark on the Americas or its people, by contrast Columbus' voyage was the first real domino to fall. And it led to the first European settlement that 'stuck' to this day (St. Augustine).

Yes Columbus’ estimation of the globe’ circumfrence was off. He really thought at first he was encountering Asia. 

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8 hours ago, smltwnrckr said:

One dick talking about another dick. It's all very meta.

LOL Glad I'm not the only one that thinks Neal Degrasse tyson is a huge dick...

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12 hours ago, TheSanDiegan said:

While Colón may have had some reason to believe there was an unexplored land to the West, rather it be by way of a Portuguese fisherman or other means, that was not Columbus' intended target (he believed he was going to find a route to Japan). And the significance of Colón's voyage was not so much in the 'discovery' (a relative term for sure), but that it it was his voyage that opened up what became the first truly global economy in the Spanish Main and opened the doors for European colonialization (of the Americas). While the Vinland settlements left no indelible mark on the Americas or its people, by contrast Columbus' voyage was the first real domino to fall. And it led to the first European settlement that 'stuck' to this day (St. Augustine).

First global economy? The silk road says "lol" and that was a lot more logistically difficult. 

I take your meaning though.

2 hours ago, HR_Poke said:

LOL Glad I'm not the only one that thinks Neal Degrasse tyson is a huge dick...

He was good in Cosmos and I bet he's a great lecturer.  He does struggle with people who don't have the luxury of having spent half their life studying science though, assuming that the knowledge he has is obvious. Not uncommon frankly. 

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33 minutes ago, happycamper said:

He was good in Cosmos and I bet he's a great lecturer.  He does struggle with people who don't have the luxury of having spent half their life studying science though, assuming that the knowledge he has is obvious. Not uncommon frankly. 

No, he's just a condescending prick. I know plenty of really smart people who are able to explain hard things in ways that aren't so annoying. 

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5 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

No, he's just a condescending prick. I know plenty of really smart people who are able to explain hard things in ways that aren't so annoying. 

I know plenty who can't, too :shrug: I generally have to stop and objectively think about whether I am saying would make sense if I hadn't had the full suite of experiences that I've had otherwise. 

 

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37 minutes ago, happycamper said:

First global economy? The silk road says "lol" and that was a lot more logistically difficult. 

From what I understand, the silk road was a lot more disparate than the Atlantic world after the 1490s. I'm not sure how much the distinction mattered, but it seems to me that the silk road represented a bunch of connected economies and that the Atlantic world was much more of a self-consciously integrated thing in a way that the silk road never was.

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Just now, happycamper said:

I know plenty who can't, too :shrug: I generally have to stop and objectively think about whether I am saying would make sense if I hadn't had the full suite of experiences that I've had otherwise. 

 

Probably true, though I mainly just hate people who have to tell me why some technical error nobody cares about in a movie is somehow a fatal flaw for the entire production. IMO, that indicates a serious personality disorder.

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8 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

From what I understand, the silk road was a lot more disparate than the Atlantic world after the 1490s. I'm not sure how much the distinction mattered, but it seems to me that the silk road represented a bunch of connected economies and that the Atlantic world was much more of a self-consciously integrated thing in a way that the silk road never was.

Probably was, but the Romans absolutely knew that their silk was coming from China and where in general China laid. India had extensive trading networks with Greece to China in Plato's time IIRC. Shoot just the grain trading of the Roman Empire was effectively "global". Not hemispheric though. The Columbian Exchange  was probably a bigger deal, short term, than the actual colonization efforts were. (short term being until the 1800s really). 

6 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

Probably true, though I mainly just hate people who have to tell me why some technical error nobody cares about in a movie is somehow a fatal flaw for the entire production. IMO, that indicates a serious personality disorder.

not a fan of cinema sins?

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5 hours ago, happycamper said:

First global economy? The silk road says "lol" and that was a lot more logistically difficult. 

I take your meaning though.

He was good in Cosmos and I bet he's a great lecturer.  He does struggle with people who don't have the luxury of having spent half their life studying science though, assuming that the knowledge he has is obvious. Not uncommon frankly. 

I appreciate your point.

However, the SIlk Road, while transcontinental, was hardly 'global.' By contrast, the Spanish trade routes - which ran from Manila to the West Coast, overland to the Caribbean to the Spanish Main, across the Atlantic to Spain, and down and around the Cape of Good Hope and eventually back to the archipelagos of the Western Pacific - were truly global, and had no historical precedent. The closest would be the Chinese treasure fleets that had stopped sailing by the mid-15th century.

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15 hours ago, Old_SD_Dude said:

You have an interesting definition of the word discover. My point was that the maritime community knew there was land across the Atlantic.

Portugal had a very substantial colonial empire, which included Brazil. 

Portugal's interest in the New World was small compared to their interests in Africa and Asia. Brazil was their only foothold. Spain went all in.

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13 hours ago, happycamper said:

First global economy? The silk road says "lol" and that was a lot more logistically difficult. 

I take your meaning though.

He was good in Cosmos and I bet he's a great lecturer.  He does struggle with people who don't have the luxury of having spent half their life studying science though, assuming that the knowledge he has is obvious. Not uncommon frankly. 

I was very underwhelmed with the new Cosmos tbh.  A few good episodes, some good history but pretty meh.

 

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