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SalinasSpartan

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Just wondering what is your guys’ opinion about this? To save you guys a google, this was a bill signed in to law in California that raises the minimum age to be tried as an adult from 14 to 16. Now 14 and 15 year olds can not be tried as adults under any circumstance. 

Personally, I would probably have to agree that it’s better to keep as many youths out of the adult criminal system as possible, but I really don’t like that there is no exception for murderers. Not long before I left California there was a case in Santa Cruz, which is fairly close to where I am from, involving an 8 year old girl named Madyson Middleton. A (at the time) 15 year old boy named Adrian Gonzalez that knew her and lived in her apartment complex lured her in to his apartment with ice cream, choked her, stabbed her, raped her, put her in a garbage bin where she suffocated to death, then dumped her dead body in a recycling bin. If I remember correctly the choking, stabbing, and raping took about 30 minutes before she suffocated to death. The courts previously made the decision to try him as an adult, but considering he hasn’t been convicted yet it’s possible now that he could be tried in Juvenile court and upon being convicted would be released by his 25th birthday in 2025. I just don’t see how setting this guy free in his mid 20s is justice. 

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Most examples of teenagers who are charged as adults are not nearly as extreme as the ones that politicians use to defend the policies that allow prosecutors to try them as adults. Even the ones who are charged with murder. 

Sorry, I don't care what he did. A 14 year old should be treated differently by the court system than an 18 year old. 

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Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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10 hours ago, SalinasSpartan said:

Just wondering what is your guys’ opinion about this? To save you guys a google, this was a bill signed in to law in California that raises the minimum age to be tried as an adult from 14 to 16. Now 14 and 15 year olds can not be tried as adults under any circumstance. 

Personally, I would probably have to agree that it’s better to keep as many youths out of the adult criminal system as possible, but I really don’t like that there is no exception for murderers. Not long before I left California there was a case in Santa Cruz, which is fairly close to where I am from, involving an 8 year old girl named Madyson Middleton. A (at the time) 15 year old boy named Adrian Gonzalez that knew her and lived in her apartment complex lured her in to his apartment with ice cream, choked her, stabbed her, raped her, put her in a garbage bin where she suffocated to death, then dumped her dead body in a recycling bin. If I remember correctly the choking, stabbing, and raping took about 30 minutes before she suffocated to death. The courts previously made the decision to try him as an adult, but considering he hasn’t been convicted yet it’s possible now that he could be tried in Juvenile court and upon being convicted would be released by his 25th birthday in 2025. I just don’t see how setting this guy free in his mid 20s is justice. 

Some of the time I think we need to throw their parents in prison!

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9 minutes ago, Joe from WY said:

I think we should just build enough prisons to throw everyone in, do so, and make people have to bargain their way out and prove they're decent people. 

Yeah but then in CA everything would be up to the Prison Guard union. No good. 

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4 hours ago, smltwnrckr said:

Most examples of teenagers who are charged as adults are not nearly as extreme as the ones that politicians use to defend the policies that allow prosecutors to try them as adults. Even the ones who are charged with murder. 

Sorry, I don't care what he did. A 14 year old should be treated differently by the court system than an 18 year old. 

So you do not think murderers should be treated differently? 10 years for a Premeditated murder is justice?

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3 hours ago, Joe from WY said:

I think we should just build enough prisons to throw everyone in, do so, and make people have to bargain their way out and prove they're decent people. 

You’re on the right track.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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10 minutes ago, SalinasSpartan said:

So you do not think murderers should be treated differently? 10 years for a Premeditated murder is justice?

Yes, I do think murderers should be treated differently - 14 year old murderers should be treated differently than adult murderers. There's no discussion of the nature of justice if we don't see eye to eye on that. 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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14 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

Yes, I do think murderers should be treated differently - 14 year old murderers should be treated differently than adult murderers. There's no discussion of the nature of justice if we don't see eye to eye on that. 

And 15 year olds? And how differently do they need to be treated? First degree murderers for a 16 year old is a life sentence, what should it be for a 14 year old? 

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Just now, SalinasSpartan said:

And 15 year olds?

Sure, but since the parties who oppose this measure will use the most extreme examples (blood thirsty 15 year olds who murder for fun) to support their positions, I will do the same and use 14 year olds as my example. After all, the law includes them too.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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5 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

Sure, but since the parties who oppose this measure will use the most extreme examples (blood thirsty 15 year olds who murder for fun) to support their positions, I will do the same and use 14 year olds as my example. After all, the law includes them too.

This kind of lazy ass thinking is what got us 3 strikes laws and mandatory minimums.

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1 minute ago, SalinasSpartan said:

This kind of lazy ass thinking is what got us 3 strikes laws and mandatory minimums.

Oh, really? I'd love to hear an explanation as to why.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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3 minutes ago, renoskier said:

Will it leave judges with less discretion?

The bill, it seems, would leave prosecutors with less discretion. Which is only a good thing, IMO.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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1 hour ago, SalinasSpartan said:

So you do not think murderers should be treated differently? 10 years for a Premeditated murder is justice?

Of course they should be treated differently.

Hell I'd love to see a study of recidivism. If murderers serving 10 years came out as good of citizens, or better, than those serving 20, isn't it worth a look? I mean do you really think that a 15 year old is totally conscious of their actions as an adult? If you do, why aren't they able to enter into contracts or vote?

31 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

Oh, really? I'd love to hear an explanation as to why.

Because you disagree with him.

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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1 minute ago, happycamper said:

Why aren't they able to enter into contracts or vote?

Or have sexual relations with consenting adults?

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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1 hour ago, smltwnrckr said:

Oh, really? I'd love to hear an explanation as to why.

The one size fits all nature of it. I don’t think every third strike should be treated the same, I don’t feel every person caught with X amount of drugs should be treated the same, and I don’t think every 14 or 15 year old that is convicted of a crime should be free by their 25th birthday. 

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1 hour ago, happycamper said:

Of course they should be treated differently.

Hell I'd love to see a study of recidivism. If murderers serving 10 years came out as good of citizens, or better, than those serving 20, isn't it worth a look? I mean do you really think that a 15 year old is totally conscious of their actions as an adult? If you do, why aren't they able to enter into contracts or vote?

Because you disagree with him.

Well by that logic, if we are treating them as juveniles and (I assume) sealing these records; why hold them until age 25? Why not release them at age 18? 

And let’s not pretend like this bill will come with any sort of meaningful prison reform, because it won’t. It will just dump these kids in to YA instead of prison, and if they aren’t rehabilitated by age 25 the system shrugs their shoulders and says “welp, we tried. Here’s your stuff and a clean record, hope you didn’t get emersed in to the gang culture that runs rampant here during your 10 years inside, and I hope you don’t kill anybody else”. 

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