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Trade War with China escalates

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https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/17/trump-puts-new-tariffs-on-china-as-trade-war-escalates.html

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President Donald Trump will impose 10 percent tariffs on $200 billion worth of Chinese imports, and those duties will rise to 25 percent at the end of the year.

The action, announced by the Trump administration Monday, escalates a trade conflict between the world's two largest economies. China has already threatened to retaliate against new trade barriers.

 

thelawlorfaithful, on 31 Dec 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:One of the rules I live by: never underestimate a man in a dandy looking sweater

 

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I think China blinks this time. They're running out of American imports to tariff, and the US still has a long way to go.

They should just stop with the intellectual property piracy and agree to the original conditions put forth prior to the first tariffs.

In the meantime, steel and paper mills are opening here in the U.S. to counter rising prices and shortened supply.

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6 minutes ago, CV147 said:

I think China blinks this time. They're running out of American imports to tariff, and the US still has a long way to go.

They should just stop with the intellectual property piracy and agree to the original conditions put forth prior to the first tariffs.

In the meantime, steel and paper mills are opening here in the U.S. to counter rising prices and shortened supply.

And we’ll all pay more. 

Thay Haif Said: Quhat Say Thay? Lat Thame Say

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I just don't see how we can enforce intellectual property rights   Even if we get china to agree on paper.  I don't see how we can keep them from manipulating currency.  I don't see how we can keep them from dumping low priced goods on markets to run American competition into bankruptcy.

 

So I just have a hard time envisioning a way we can actually win.

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7 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

 

I just don't see how we can enforce intellectual property rights   Even if we get china to agree on paper.  I don't see how we can keep them from manipulating currency.  I don't see how we can keep them from dumping low priced goods on markets to run American competition into bankruptcy.

 

So I just have a hard time envisioning a way we can actually win.

They force companies locating in China to share trade secrets. Then they set up state-run industries to compete with our products using our own trade secrets.

We can first off stop that practice. Make it enforceable with an automatic embargo on the sector if it is found to have violated the agreement. China will shape up, then.

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Just now, CV147 said:

They force companies locating in China to share trade secrets. Then they set up state-run industries to compete with our products using our own trade secrets.

We can first off stop that practice. Make it enforceable with an automatic embargo on the sector if it is found to have violated the agreement. China will shape up, then.

That is no different than what was in place for the last 40 years with the WTO.

It didn't work then, I see no reason it would work now.

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I'm all for free trade. But if we're doing free trade and the other country isn't it puts our industries and agricultural producers at a huge disadvantage.

Cheap products flood our market, while our products are marked up in their countries to "protect" their economy.

How is this sustainable?

At the very least, can't we agree that this has contributed to the erosion of our industrial sector in America?

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4 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

That was the third party in place for enforcing fair trade.

Why would we be able to do more to enforce anything than the WTO which had a whole lot more credibility than us alone.

What is"fair" about the situation we're in, where countries place duties on our products, and we let theirs in duty-free?

If that's what the WTO calls fair, then I wouldn't put much stock in their protecting fair trade.

Instead, we'll just unilaterally raise tariffs, or embargoes.

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2 minutes ago, CV147 said:

I'm all for free trade. But if we're doing free trade and the other country isn't it puts our industries and agricultural producers at a huge disadvantage.

Cheap products flood our market, while our products are marked up in their countries to "protect" their economy.

How is this sustainable?

Through innovation, and education.  We have to continually build new and better widgets faster and cheaper.  If we don't we won't sustain.

We build TV's we have to know the asians will build them cheaper so we have to build color TV's. then add remote controls, wide screens, ect...  We have to be one step a head. 

 

No county is going to agree to a trade agreement that forces them to be less productive so american workers can make more.

 

4 minutes ago, CV147 said:

I

At the very least, can't we agree that this has contributed to the erosion of our industrial sector in America?

No I don't agree it eroded the industrial sector.   What eroded the factory and labor jobs was Americans insistence on higher wages and their production couldn't justify it.   If we want to keep high paying jobs we have to continually innovate and our workers have to be capable of more and more production.  If the workers don't take it on themselves to be more productive their wages will suffer and eventually they will lose the jobs because the Chinese, Vietnamese, Indonesians, Africans and everyone else would gladly take jobs at 1/10 american pay rates.   They will also gladly learn more and more and if the American worker doesn't compete we will lose.

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11 minutes ago, CV147 said:

What is"fair" about the situation we're in, where countries place duties on our products, and we let theirs in duty-free?

If that's what the WTO calls fair, then I wouldn't put much stock in their protecting fair trade.

Instead, we'll just unilaterally raise tariffs, or embargoes.

We provide price supports. And things do not come in duty free. It’s generally cheaper than elsewhere, but it’s not free. And you fail to see that placing tariffs on imports adversely affects any industry that uses those imports. We will all pay more for things made from imported metals. It’s easy to argue that in the long term there will be more job losses than job gains.  And we are cranking up the farmer welfare big time. 

Thay Haif Said: Quhat Say Thay? Lat Thame Say

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23 minutes ago, Old_SD_Dude said:

We provide price supports. And things do not come in duty free. It’s generally cheaper than elsewhere, but it’s not free. And you fail to see that placing tariffs on imports adversely affects any industry that uses those imports. We will all pay more for things made from imported metals. It’s easy to argue that in the long term there will be more job losses than job gains.  And we are cranking up the farmer welfare big time. 

I think that's a fair point about farmers. I would be for ridding all price supports and subsidies. I think the private sector could provide crop insurance.

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27 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

Through innovation, and education.  We have to continually build new and better widgets faster and cheaper.  If we don't we won't sustain.

We build TV's we have to know the asians will build them cheaper so we have to build color TV's. then add remote controls, wide screens, ect...  We have to be one step a head.

 

American industries put forth considerable investment in R&D. I don't think we should just give it to China.

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No county is going to agree to a trade agreement that forces them to be less productive so american workers can make more.


"Fair" trade should mean on equal footing. What about duty-free both ways makes their workers less productive? If we can build new and better widgets, so can they. Reverse engineer our stuff. I think that's fair. Just don't ask our companies for their trade secrets as a perquisite to being in your market. Imagine if we asked the same from Germany.
 

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No I don't agree it eroded the industrial sector.   What eroded the factory and labor jobs was Americans insistence on higher wages and their production couldn't justify it.   If we want to keep high paying jobs we have to continually innovate and our workers have to be capable of more and more production.  If the workers don't take it on themselves to be more productive their wages will suffer and eventually they will lose the jobs because the Chinese, Vietnamese, Indonesians, Africans and everyone else would gladly take jobs at 1/10 american pay rates.   They will also gladly learn more and more and if the American worker doesn't compete we will lose.

I said it contributed. I didn't say it was the only reason. I understand the union role in diminishing quality and shrinking sales.

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