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Jeffkills

OT - Keto Diet

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1 minute ago, ph90702 said:

Dr. Mercola is the Ron Paul of medicine.  He’ll say something, people will call him a quack, and then he’ll be proven right down the line.

He's an anti-vaxxer, believes that microwaves change the chemical composition of food, and questions whether or not HIV actually causes AIDS, among other incredibly outlandish claims. 

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12 minutes ago, retrofade said:

He's an anti-vaxxer, believes that microwaves change the chemical composition of food, and questions whether or not HIV actually causes AIDS, among other incredibly outlandish claims. 

He’s still licensed by the mainstream in spite of his “outlandish” claims.  You sound like you’ve studied him extensively?

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7 minutes ago, ph90702 said:

He’s still licensed by the mainstream in spite of his “outlandish” claims.  You sound like you’ve studied him extensively?

With so many other respected professionals disagreeing,  why do you choose to believe him?

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19 hours ago, Joe from WY said:

I just got diagnosed last week with Celiac Disease. I'm all in on Keto at this point tbh. 

Dang. My son was diagnosed with it last last year. It's a pain, but it's much easier to be Celiac now that it was even 10 years ago. I bit more expensive, but finding gluten free food, even at restaurants, is pretty easy. Good luck.

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21 hours ago, Fowl said:

It is metabolically impossible to make someone fat by giving them insulin if they are eating under maintenance calories.  All insulin does is open the door to all cells to let glucose, amino acids, and lipds in.  If eating under maintenance calories by definition one is not consuming enough energy to fuel the body.  Thus the body must find extra energy by using stored energy (either stored glucose (glycogen), stored fat cells, or by breaking down muscle tissue into amino acids and converting them to glucose via de novo gluconeogeneis) and it will preferentially select glycogen over adipose tissue and protein.  So he can inject as much insulin into someone he wants but unless they have excessive calories to store then they won't get fat.  As a matter of fact under those circumstances the person would die because there wouldn't be enough serum glucose to be used by all of the excessive insulin.  They'd go into a coma and die.

If someone were to BOTH eat over maintenance calories AND inject insulin then it is highly likely that that excessive energy would be stored as extra adipose tissue.

I've heard this Dr on a couple of podcasts and he is trying to make a name, and more importantly a practice, for himself by using hyperbole and latching on to intermittent fasting.

I see your point about his hyperbole - on a very calorie-restricted diet, insulin injections would probably still not cause fat stores to increase.  If, on the other hand, someone at a stable weight began getting insulin injections while maintaining their same diet, would you expect the person to a) maintain the same weight b) lose weight or c) gain weight?

These snippets from another of his blog posts goes into more detail on what he sees wrong with traditional caloric deficit weight loss techniques: https://idmprogram.com/evidence-caloric-restriction/

 

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They say ‘This diet (Paleo, Low Carb, Whole Food etc) works because it creates a ‘caloric deficit’. That is, reducing the calories you eat will create a caloric deficit. They often invoke the old Calories In Calories Out rule.

Change in Body Fat = Calorie Intake – Calorie Output. Yes. This is true...

 

 

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The problem is that people now make the entirely unwarranted assumption that Calorie Output remains stable so that reducing calories intake (food) automatically results in loss of body fat. This is why I see tables like this, that are liked by so many. As I’ve written about many times, this is utterly false. Basal metabolism may increase or decrease up to 40%...

 

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So, where is the evidence that reducing calorie intake as the primary strategy results in long term meaningful weight loss?

 

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Where are all these studies? Oh, right. They all conclusively show that CRaP [Calorie Restriction as Primary] does NOT produce long term weight loss.

 

He then discusses the results of three different multi-year studies that he says prove his point - TODAY, Diabetes Prevention Program, and the Women's Health Initiative.

 

 

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On 9/15/2018 at 7:25 PM, Swexy said:

Sports don’t help that. I like my beer and shitty stadium food. I tend to sabotage myself. 

I got all of that stuff out of my system yesterday... back on the keto train today. I made sure to get a bunch of Powerade Zero to make sure I keep my electrolytes up. That was the most difficult for me the last time I did this... at the beginning anyway, because I felt like shit and didn't know why. 

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On 9/16/2018 at 10:37 AM, Pelado said:

I see your point about his hyperbole - on a very calorie-restricted diet, insulin injections would probably still not cause fat stores to increase.  If, on the other hand, someone at a stable weight began getting insulin injections while maintaining their same diet, would you expect the person to a) maintain the same weight b) lose weight or c) gain weight?

These snippets from another of his blog posts goes into more detail on what he sees wrong with traditional caloric deficit weight loss techniques: https://idmprogram.com/evidence-caloric-restriction/

 

 

 

 

 

He then discusses the results of three different multi-year studies that he says prove his point - TODAY, Diabetes Prevention Program, and the Women's Health Initiative.

 

 

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On 9/13/2018 at 12:47 PM, Jeffkills said:

Keto is the best ever, for reals......

image.jpeg.1cb6640692942bbf17d1069f6f6682dd.jpeg

 

Am I right, or what?!

I accepted the challenge.  I read up on it and saw that I could do it.  The one thing that made me do it was that I read that it can help blood pressure.  So far so good.  I'm loosing weight and inches.  The blood pressure readings are looking better.  Still not perfect but, I'm hopeful. 

I've heard about Keto before but, I'm usually not one to jump into something like this.  Regardless, thank you for this thread.

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28 minutes ago, NWRebel said:

I accepted the challenge.  I read up on it and saw that I could do it.  The one thing that made me do it was that I read that it can help blood pressure.  So far so good.  I'm loosing weight and inches.  The blood pressure readings are looking better.  Still not perfect but, I'm hopeful. 

I've heard about Keto before but, I'm usually not one to jump into something like this.  Regardless, thank you for this thread.

No prob, Bob...

Good for you...

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2 hours ago, Pelado said:

No comments on this post?

Sorry I was travelling all last week and have been sick.  Leaving tomorrow for a week and a half overseas so I'll try to give you something but may have to wait until I get back to be more comprehensive.

On 9/16/2018 at 9:37 AM, Pelado said:

I see your point about his hyperbole - on a very calorie-restricted diet, insulin injections would probably still not cause fat stores to increase.  If, on the other hand, someone at a stable weight began getting insulin injections while maintaining their same diet, would you expect the person to a) maintain the same weight b) lose weight or c) gain weight?

These snippets from another of his blog posts goes into more detail on what he sees wrong with traditional caloric deficit weight loss techniques: https://idmprogram.com/evidence-caloric-restriction/

If a healthy non-diabetic, non-obese person was eating exactly maintenance calories AND injecting insulin they would not gain fat so long as their total energy expenditure did not decline.  Again, insulin is a storage hormone that acts like a key to unlock the doors to cells to allow glucose, amino acids, etc into the cells. Once those cells have reached their capacity of say glucose, in this case, they cannot store any more.

For example, muscle cells after being trained are depleted of stored glycogen because the glycogen was oxidized during the workout to use for energy.  Upon ingestion of carbs/glucose after training the glucose will be preferentially shuttled to the depleted muscle cells via insulin.  However, once the muscle cells have been refilled with glucose/glycogen they cannot store any more.  It doesn't matter how much insulin is in the bloodstream.  If hepatic glycogen stores are depleted then the glucose would be taken up there.  If muscular and hepatic glycogen stores are full then glucose would float around in the bloodstream available for use by the brain, other organs, or for activities like walking, talking, chewing, exercise, etc. which is no different than fatty acids floating around the bloodstream for energy uses.

When excessive amounts of glucose are in the bloodstream and not being stored as glycogen or used as immediate fuel then they can undergo de novo lipogensis (DNL).  This converts the glucose into triglycerides and then the TG's go back into the bloodstream for use as energy or stored as adipose tissue.  

Again it is overall energy balance that determines whether energy (carbs or fat) are stored as fat.  If you match the energy intake with outtake then DNL doesn't occur and the TG's in the blood are used and not stored, net net.

His take that caloric restriction "doesn't work" because 90%+ of dieters gain back the weight is disingenuous.  The reason why people regain weight/fat is because they subsequently return to eating above maintenance calories.  What people don't understand is that during a diet metabolic adaptation occurs which in essence lowers basal metabolic rate which then lowers maintenance caloric levels because the body has less of itself to "feed".  So a guy can start out with maintenance kcals of 2,200 and end up at 2,000.  If he then reverts to 2,400 kcal and energy expenditure doesn't rise he will likely gain fat.

These two studies posted below show that when calories and protein are controlled there is no difference in weight and fat loss.  If insulin was such a potent inhibitor of fat loss as purported by the guy you quoted, then one would expect that the diet with lower carbohydrate intake in these studies would yield more fat loss than the diet with higher CHO intake.  In fact the higher CHO diets yielded slightly higher fat loss.

Energy expenditure and body composition changes after an isocaloric ketogenic diet in overweight and obese men -- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27385608

Ketogenic low-carbohydrate diets have no metabolic advantage over nonketogenic low-carbohydrate diets -- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16685046

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2 hours ago, Fowl said:

Ketogenic low-carbohydrate diets have no metabolic advantage over nonketogenic low-carbohydrate diets -- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16685046

Dude, when your in ketosis your burning stored body fat for energy when operating at a caloric deficit..

Mental clarity is another tremendous metabolic effect of Ketosis...

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That is the title of the paper.  When you are using any diet and eating under maintenance calories you are using stored body fat for energy...

Do not disagree at all on mental clarity.  It is pretty amazing.  I think that is due to the anti-inflammatory effects of the diet.  There are lots of other benefits from a keto diet, too.

All diets work so long as one eats under maintenance calories.  The most important part of a diet is adherence...

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1 hour ago, Fowl said:

That is the title of the paper.  When you are using any diet and eating under maintenance calories you are using stored body fat for energy...

Do not disagree at all on mental clarity.  It is pretty amazing.  I think that is due to the anti-inflammatory effects of the diet.  There are lots of other benefits from a keto diet, too.

All diets work so long as one eats under maintenance calories.  The most important part of a diet is adherence...

Adherence and consistency is the toughest part. Keto is great for a lot of people because they see immediate results through the water weight they lose due to the restriction of carbohydrates. Any diet that endorses the eating of whole unprocessed foods while minimizing/eliminating sugar and processed carbs is going to get the job done for most. 

There are only two things I can't stand in this world: people who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch. 

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13 hours ago, Jeffkills said:

Dude, when your in ketosis your burning stored body fat for energy when operating at a caloric deficit..

Mental clarity is another tremendous metabolic effect of Ketosis...

But if you're operating at a caloric deficit, that is what you're burning anyway, no? I mean, fat and muscles are all you can burn once you're in a caloric deficit.

I'm wondering at how much the keto diet works is just due to the fact that the same amount of calories in fat and protein make you feel a lot more sated than the same number in carbs, so it is easier to be in a caloric deficit. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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27 minutes ago, happycamper said:

But if you're operating at a caloric deficit, that is what you're burning anyway, no? I mean, fat and muscles are all you can burn once you're in a caloric deficit.

I'm wondering at how much the keto diet works is just due to the fact that the same amount of calories in fat and protein make you feel a lot more sated than the same number in carbs, so it is easier to be in a caloric deficit. 

That's the big part of it for me. That being said, I still generally only eat as much as is necessary to keep me satiated. One of the traps with a keto diet is that people think that they HAVE to hit their fat macro, when it's honestly just a hard limit, like carbs are. Protein is more of a soft ceiling, but you can go over as long as you're still eating at a deficit. 

I also found the last time that after about a month or so, I wasn't even as hungry as I used to be, so I started intermittent fasting, and had a lot of good effects from that. I got to that point a lot faster this time around, and was already intermittent fasting a day after I started.

My weight loss over the last week and a couple of days was accelerated somewhat by the fact that I got food poisoning over the weekend, so I hadn't been hungry at all until last night. So I've been at a deep caloric deficit and have dropped a little over 15lbs already. I wouldn't recommend food poisoning as a way to lose weight though. 

Now that I'm back to feeling better, I'm going to make some beef, broccoli, and snow pea stir fry tonight with a super low carb stir fry mix I came up with last year. 

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21 hours ago, Fowl said:

Sorry I was travelling all last week and have been sick.  Leaving tomorrow for a week and a half overseas so I'll try to give you something but may have to wait until I get back to be more comprehensive.

If a healthy non-diabetic, non-obese person was eating exactly maintenance calories AND injecting insulin they would not gain fat so long as their total energy expenditure did not decline.  Again, insulin is a storage hormone that acts like a key to unlock the doors to cells to allow glucose, amino acids, etc into the cells. Once those cells have reached their capacity of say glucose, in this case, they cannot store any more.

For example, muscle cells after being trained are depleted of stored glycogen because the glycogen was oxidized during the workout to use for energy.  Upon ingestion of carbs/glucose after training the glucose will be preferentially shuttled to the depleted muscle cells via insulin.  However, once the muscle cells have been refilled with glucose/glycogen they cannot store any more.  It doesn't matter how much insulin is in the bloodstream.  If hepatic glycogen stores are depleted then the glucose would be taken up there.  If muscular and hepatic glycogen stores are full then glucose would float around in the bloodstream available for use by the brain, other organs, or for activities like walking, talking, chewing, exercise, etc. which is no different than fatty acids floating around the bloodstream for energy uses.

When excessive amounts of glucose are in the bloodstream and not being stored as glycogen or used as immediate fuel then they can undergo de novo lipogensis (DNL).  This converts the glucose into triglycerides and then the TG's go back into the bloodstream for use as energy or stored as adipose tissue.  

Again it is overall energy balance that determines whether energy (carbs or fat) are stored as fat.  If you match the energy intake with outtake then DNL doesn't occur and the TG's in the blood are used and not stored, net net.

His take that caloric restriction "doesn't work" because 90%+ of dieters gain back the weight is disingenuous.  The reason why people regain weight/fat is because they subsequently return to eating above maintenance calories.  What people don't understand is that during a diet metabolic adaptation occurs which in essence lowers basal metabolic rate which then lowers maintenance caloric levels because the body has less of itself to "feed".  So a guy can start out with maintenance kcals of 2,200 and end up at 2,000.  If he then reverts to 2,400 kcal and energy expenditure doesn't rise he will likely gain fat.

These two studies posted below show that when calories and protein are controlled there is no difference in weight and fat loss.  If insulin was such a potent inhibitor of fat loss as purported by the guy you quoted, then one would expect that the diet with lower carbohydrate intake in these studies would yield more fat loss than the diet with higher CHO intake.  In fact the higher CHO diets yielded slightly higher fat loss.

Energy expenditure and body composition changes after an isocaloric ketogenic diet in overweight and obese men -- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27385608

Ketogenic low-carbohydrate diets have no metabolic advantage over nonketogenic low-carbohydrate diets -- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16685046

I don't have time to read that study right now, but from your summary, I'm not sure that differs from what Fung is saying.  He is advocating low-carb high-fat (but not necessarily keto).

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1 hour ago, Pelado said:

I don't have time to read that study right now, but from your summary, I'm not sure that differs from what Fung is saying.  He is advocating low-carb high-fat (but not necessarily keto).

The study had two groups.  The Keto group ate 60% fats, 35% protein, and 5% carbs which got all of them deep into ketosis as measured by serum beta-hydroxybuturate.  The low carb group ate 30% fats, 30% protein, and 40% carbs.  Both lost fat but the higher carb group lost slightly more weight and and almost twice as much fat.

Fung has lost his $hit over this study.  On twitter he's been acting like a little boy who lost a game and is taking his ball and going home.  His reaction tells me a lot.  Good scientist keep open minds and change them when the data is on the other side.  He is so wedded to his "keto is the only way" that he won't change his mind regardless of the evidence.  His only complaint about the study conclusion that holds water is that the keto group had higher resting energy expenditure of around 50 kcals/day.  However, the higher carb group lost almost twice as much fat as the keto group so the difference in REE doesn't matter.

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12 hours ago, happycamper said:

But if you're operating at a caloric deficit, that is what you're burning anyway, no? I mean, fat and muscles are all you can burn once you're in a caloric deficit. 

I'm wondering at how much the keto diet works is just due to the fact that the same amount of calories in fat and protein make you feel a lot more sated than the same number in carbs, so it is easier to be in a caloric deficit.  

I think the problem with carbs is that many times, people mindlessly eat carbs thinking there at a deficit, but if they're mistaken, the carbs are just storing up along the midsection, prepping you for winter...

Many people, myself included attest to feeling full eating much smaller portions on this diet.

I used to be able to eat a whole bag of chips and a pizza if I was super hungry.

Now, during the week, I barely eat a chicken breast and some broccoli and I'm feeling stuffed.

5 hours ago, Fowl said:

The study had two groups.  The Keto group ate 60% fats, 35% protein, and 5% carbs which got all of them deep into ketosis as measured by serum beta-hydroxybuturate.  The low carb group ate 30% fats, 30% protein, and 40% carbs.  Both lost fat but the higher carb group lost slightly more weight and and almost twice as much fat. 

Fung has lost his $hit over this study.  On twitter he's been acting like a little boy who lost a game and is taking his ball and going home.  His reaction tells me a lot.  Good scientist keep open minds and change them when the data is on the other side.  He is so wedded to his "keto is the only way" that he won't change his mind regardless of the evidence.  His only complaint about the study conclusion that holds water is that the keto group had higher resting energy expenditure of around 50 kcals/day.  However, the higher carb group lost almost twice as much fat as the keto group so the difference in REE doesn't matter. 

Our ancestors weren't hanging around the cave eating a bunch of refined carbs all day...  We evolved eating high-fat protein, nuts, berries, etc - not Cheese-its. 

Consuming Processed foods and high fructose sugar is just begging to feel like shit... 

At this point, I'm doing the keto diet primarily for the mental clarity/peaceful feeling it induces...  The weight loss and health improvements are essentially just additional perks at this point...  The fact that I lose weight while I sleep is pretty cool...

I've had really a really good experience doing keto M-F, then whatever I want on the weekends...  Every time you enter Ketosis, it feels like some kind of religious experience...  

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FWIW, any time I have done a keto type diet, it has been low carb (less than 8 gr), low fat, high protein and vegetables. The first time I started it I felt like crap for about 4 days, then started to feel better, and after a couple more days felt great, and not hungry, on only about 800 cals per day, largely because of the protein. With that said, I can only manage about 2 weeks at a time, I miss fruit, and I cut out Diet Pepsi, I lose more weight when I’m not drinking it, but then I also drink more water. 

I realize it’s the 800 cal diet that makes me lose weight (I don’t count them, BTW) but one thing keto also does for me is keep me from grabbing ‘just one’ cookie, because I don’t want to throw myself out of ketosis. Whatever works, lol. I pretty much use it as maintenance, especially since I usually gain about 5 lbs during the summer, too much ice cream, and too hot to be outside. But several years ago I’d taken a medication that made me gain 30 lbs in 6 months, and I couldn’t get rid of it even after I quit taking it. Nothing worked but the keto, and I did get a little help from ‘Ideal Protein’, expensive but it helped me get started. I lost 25 lbs over several months, doing it intermittently. 

Now... there was a report on TV here in Vegas this week that said smoking Sativa will help you lose weight. Kinda sounds like more fun for next time, lol, but it does kind of go against the theory that smoking weed makes you gain weight. Maybe somebody can let me know if it works. B)

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