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mugtang

Democratic Socialism - No way to pay for it

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1 minute ago, Boise fan said:

Healthcare isn't free in Canada.  It never has been. 

There's a huge difference between "free" and prepaid via taxes. 

Is your employee based healthcare "free" because it comes out of pre-tax withholdings?  

And the whole "extended wait" is largely bullshit.  So I'm thinking you're full of shit.

There are wait times in any system.  I had to wait two and a half months for an eye surgery in America. I routinely have to book an appointment up to three months out to see my doctor. 

Why do you think I put “free” in quotes.

And you can take what I said however you want. I’ve been around here long enough to know trying to discuss this with you is pointless. 

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29 minutes ago, Boise fan said:

Healthcare isn't free in Canada.  It never has been. 

There's a huge difference between "free" and prepaid via taxes. 

Is your employee based healthcare "free" because it comes out of pre-tax withholdings?  

And the whole "extended wait" is largely bullshit.  So I'm thinking you're full of shit.

There are wait times in any system.  I had to wait two and a half months for an eye surgery in America. I routinely have to book an appointment up to three months out to see my doctor. 

Maybe I’m  misreading this but it seems to coincide with what I’m sayinghttps://www.google.com/amp/s/www.macleans.ca/society/health/canadas-health-care-wait-times-hit-new-record-high-again/amp/

 

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/when-compared-to-similar-countries-canadas-health-care-wait-times-are-the-worst

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1 minute ago, Cheek Patch said:

Why do you think I put “free” in quotes.

And you can take what I said however you want. I’ve been around here long enough to know trying to discuss this with you is pointless. 

You joined in 2015 and I've never dealt with you before in any thread. I don't know who the hell you are, and our conversation started because I called you out for hiding behind the response button. 

Too many people actually believe health care in other countries are free.  Like there are magical elves paying for it all - or as the cons here would suggest, the 53% who pay income taxes are the only ones who pay for anything.  All bullshit. And is sure as hell doesn't work that way in other countries. 

Who's sock are you?  You have to be a sock.   

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BCS is to Football what Fox News is to Journalism

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1 hour ago, Boise fan said:

I am Canadian, and your wife's family is in the minority. 

It's easy to "like" the US healthcare system if you're rich.  Then you don't give a shit about the amount of money you're being fleeced.  But anyone who actually looks at the costs involved would spit out their coffee.  Anyone who had to deal with chargemasters and the myriad of insurance policies all to save some bucks here and there.  It's a phucked up system, no two ways about it.

I know a canadian that fought like hell to keep his wife out of the canadian health care system while he worked in the U.S.

In fact I know several canadians working in mining that say the biggest benefit to working in the states is our health care system.

I know of no canadian that claims you as a countryman.

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37 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

I know a canadian that fought like hell to keep his wife out of the canadian health care system while he worked in the U.S.

In fact I know several canadians working in mining that say the biggest benefit to working in the states is our health care system.

I know of no canadian that claims you as a countryman.

There are a lot of oil and gas companies that transfer employees to Calgary. I see a lot of people who come back to the States after trying the Canadian system. It’s all about expectations. Canadians know what they have. Americans are dissatisfied with the inconvenience. As long as you are healthy, the Canadian system is great.

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19 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

All you healthcare workers don’t know what you’re talking about...  I think I’ll side with the Canadian Comrade when it comes to knowing all about the US healthcare system.

I'm on Komrade @Akkula's side of this kerfuffle. He has 27 master's degrees after all. 

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I will fix the problem with our outrageous healthcare costs really quick.  Medicare public option indemnity plan whose max payout is the rate that the highest cost EU/Canada country pays for that same medical procedure.  If you can't find a good provider in the USA who will do the procedure for that rate then you can get the service from abroad or you can pay the higher USA rate out of pocket.  Time to unleash the forces of capitalism.  Bet me that the out of control medical costs won't be in control very quickly once consumers can actually shop around and start asking for pricing up front.

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40 minutes ago, Akkula said:

I will fix the problem with our outrageous healthcare costs really quick.  Medicare public option indemnity plan whose max payout is the rate that the highest cost EU/Canada country pays for that same medical procedure.  If you can't find a good provider in the USA who will do the procedure for that rate then you can get the service from abroad or you can pay the higher USA rate out of pocket.  Time to unleash the forces of capitalism.  Bet me that the out of control medical costs won't be in control very quickly once consumers can actually shop around and start asking for pricing up front.

You are too stupid to realize the obvious but almost always the socialized medicine and their procedures are more expensive than the same procedure in the U.S. system.  They just cut costs by rationing them.  Not to mention the massive welfare other countries get from U.S. pharma and medical device markets.

The average american woman with what will eventually be diagnosed as ovarian cancer will have a cat scan and two MRI's followed by exploratory surgery which will finally define the diagnosis.   In Canada or any of the EU systems that woman is in line for months to have that first diagnostic test which is of course not definitive but then is followed up with the same exploratory surgery because by this time she has fluid build up in her chest or pain in her abdomen that requires it.  The american system diagnosis the woman months before these other systems and the American lives 5-7 years even though diagnosed at stage 3-4.   The socialized medicine patient is diagnosed in advanced stage 4 and often doesn't survive 6 months.   Saving the socialized medicine system close to a million dollars in care cost.   

https://ovarian.org.uk/news-and-blog/news/new-report-ranks-uk-ovarian-cancer-survival-45th-out-59-countries/

UK ovarian cancer survival rates rank 45th out of 59 countries across the globe, according to research published today in medical journal The Lancet. The data, from 2010-2014 found only 36.2 per cent of women survive beyond five years, highlighting the desperate need for earlier diagnosis and better access to treatments in the UK. 

Survival rates lag significantly behind the USA, where 43.4 per cent of women survive beyond five years, as well as our European counterparts (France, 43.5%) and Germany (41.2%). Shockingly, British women diagnosed with ovarian cancer have less chance of surviving the disease than those in countries such as Thailand, Turkey and Romania.

Experts have attributed these figures to a number of factors. These include a lack of spending on cancer treatments; fewer specialists; less access to high quality surgery and a poor awareness of the symptoms of the disease.

https://ocrfa.org/patients/about-ovarian-cancer/statistics/?gclid=Cj0KCQjw77TbBRDtARIsAC4l83lHIUNHxdiANc96hf60jSL8saP_vOIZPgDJdIZtt_KmY0a2KaRoy9oaAr9NEALw_wcB

The following statistics come primarily from the most recent findings of the Surveillance, Epidemiology and End Results (SEER) Program of the National Cancer Institute. SEER numbers are age-adjusted and based on actual data.

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SEER Cancer Statistics Factsheets: Ovary Cancer. National Cancer Institute. Bethesda, MD

 

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Here are some ways to at least cut health care costs in Nevada.  Some of it won't apply in other states.

1)  We need to find a way to distribute more preventive care.  This is something socialized medicine does better.  It is mostly an ignorance based problem.  Only someone stupid wouldn't brush their teeth everyday.  Only someone stupid wouldn't take a physical every year.  Your kids need a physical every year and so do you and i don't care if you are a healthy 25 year old spend the $1000 if you don't have insurance and get a physical.   Your kids also need their vaccination and anyone who wants an exception to that rule should get a free plane ticket to the country of their choice.  They are not smart enough to be american.

2)  In Nevada the state will pay $10K a month for rest home hospital level care but won't pay $3K a month for assisted living care.  So we end up with people with no health problems other than an inability to feed themselves and get dressed, in a lock down hospital care situation.  Not only is it depressing for the patient it is inappropriate care and an inappropriate situation for someone who can function at a fairly high level.   I know Oregon does this much better and other states must as well.  It is really stupid.

In the old days kids took care of their parents so assisted living wasn't needed.  That has changed but Nevada is stuck.

3) Mental care is more costly than we think and underfunding mental care is a huge medical and prison population problem.   Mental patients are notorious for not taking care of themselves, they have higher rates of diabetes, infections, tooth decay, drug use, tuberculosis, HIV, and myriads of other maladys.  They also tend to treat these situations in the most expensive way because a cop will find them in an emergency medical situation and they will be hauled into an emergency room.  Then usually to a jail cell somewhere for some often non-violent crime.

These same patients with appropriate mental care which most often can be as little as a once a month or once a week visit to a mental care professional can not only function in the same world as us.  They can hold jobs, pay taxes and not be housed in our jails or prisons.

We have at different times in Nevada done this well.   Especially when Raggio was in the State Senate, he made sure we funded mental health care because he realized how much money it saved the state in other areas.   It is a whole lot cheaper to spend an hour once a week with a schizophrenic who is holding a job down and taking care of himself than seeing him in an emergency room or housing them 24/7 in a prison because you didn't spend that hour.

 

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9 hours ago, bluerules009 said:

You are too stupid to realize

Well that is how I know you don't have anything of substance to say.  It is great that you can cherry pick one issue bit why is everything more expensive here yet we don't have the best health outcomes.   We are not getting what we are paying for.   In my last post did I advocate anything like the UK system?   Why are you arguing against an argument I never made?   Maybe you can talk about how I want a to have a Venezuelan system next and argue that.   Deny, deflect, distract from how expensive medical is as a way to defend the status quo.

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8 hours ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

How many times can the same posters get beat up on the same topic and still keep coming back for me?

@Akkula and @Boise fan to the doctors and medical experts on the board.

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What a vapid take.  I am sure you are okay with letting the climate scientists set our environmental policies too, right?

The difference between me and you though is that I will have facts and evidence on my side if I decide to challenge the status quo against status quo defenders like yourself.  

The more "Nelsons" from the Simpsons like you standing around the more I know I am winning the factual arguments since you folks don't have an original thought in your head nor can you refute that the USA has the highest medical costs in the world and it is bankrupting us.

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It looks like there is already a proposal along the same lines as I proposed.  A new public option.  It is too bad Republicans haven't brought out there new amazing healthcare plan (because they have no ideas) so we are going back to something we probably should have had to start with in the ACA but it is strongly tying reimbursement rates to medicare reimbursements and saying you can't deny seeing patients in the new public option if you accept medicare.  For me this is a better version of Medicare for all as I don't necessarily think just adding a ton of new beneficiaries to the existing medicare is really that good of an idea.  Perhaps they can extend that pricing model to private insurers too so they can reimburse at medicare rates as well.  Of course physicians could opt to be 100% private payer if they want....true capitalism....if they don't want public dollars they can survive without any patients receiving public dollars.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/04/health-care-public-option-medicare/558965/

Both of the new proposals would push providers much further, requiring those who participate in Medicare to accept patients choosing the new public option. That’s a huge lever, because few physicians can afford to renounce participation in Medicare. Both proposals would also require participating providers to accept Medicare reimbursement rates for the new patients (though each allows the government some wiggle room to raise rates if required to maintain a viable network). And, for good measure, each plan embraces the longtime liberal aim of empowering Medicare to use its buying power to negotiate for lower prescription-drug costs.

...To critics who argue that a public option might lead to a government-run single-payer plan by pricing private insurers out of the market, Murphy, in effect, says: So what? “I don’t foreclose the possibility that ultimately enough people will choose [the public option] that it would be hard for private insurers to stay in business,” he told me. “But that would be up to consumers.”

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3 hours ago, Akkula said:

Whoa ... @HR_Poke and I were once scolded by Comrade fan that The Atlantic was an extreme far right fascist propaganda rag. Very surprised to see you link to it. 

EDIT: Holy crap, I've been wrong about The Atlantic story. It was actually @FresnoFanatic, not @Boise fan. Therefore, being the truthful guy that I am, I hereby retract my previous comments about Comrade fan and sincerely apologize. 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Akkula said:

I will fix the problem with our outrageous healthcare costs really quick.  Medicare public option indemnity plan whose max payout is the rate that the highest cost EU/Canada country pays for that same medical procedure.  If you can't find a good provider in the USA who will do the procedure for that rate then you can get the service from abroad or you can pay the higher USA rate out of pocket.  Time to unleash the forces of capitalism.  Bet me that the out of control medical costs won't be in control very quickly once consumers can actually shop around and start asking for pricing up front.

You can already do that, dipshit.

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23 hours ago, Jack Bauer said:

Right, and why people would want more of that is beyond me.  There isn't a more inefficient way of doing things than the VA.  Those poor people get a constant runaround.  We have guys on this thread complaining about the process of being checked in, paying a copay, being brought back and having vital signs taken, having their visit, and checking out taking 45 minutes to an hour.  And that's the terrible, rotten part of our system.  

Go to the VA sometime and see how that goes for you.  It's like a 3.5 hour turnaround time.

More like drive 3 hours or take the DAV van to the closest VA facility for a 8 am appointment. Get there, check in and wait until 11 to be seen. When you finally do see the doctor he has to spend the next 45 min unphucking your records because they are incomplete. Once that is accomplished he spends 10 min with you on your issue because he has 20 more dudes behind you he needs to see. He tells you you need to make another appointment, so you go back to the front desk to make it and get told the system is down and you need to call in to make the appointment. You get back in the DAV van and spend the the next 3 hours with 10 other pissed off guys who just went through the same useless dance. The VA is broken and will likely never get fixed. Thankfully my only service connected issue is a bad shoulder. I can live with that, other guys aren't as lucky as I am.

Anyone using the VA as a shinning example of a great system is a phucktard.

 

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On 8/9/2018 at 6:53 PM, toonkee said:

 "Look here, buster. We're not even close to having enough pretend money to pay for the stuff we got going on now.  What makes you think we can just get more stuff with more pretend money we don't have?  What are you stupid or something?"

I can see by the "likes" I got on this post that my joke didn't land the way I intended.

My point was the government gets loans to spends money it doesn't have for a huge portion of things and it has for some time.  It's become normal and accepted. So I'm not shocked that anybody has the idea to continue doing it, or even to do more of it. 

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1 hour ago, sean327 said:

More like drive 3 hours or take the DAV van to the closest VA facility for a 8 am appointment. Get there, check in and wait until 11 to be seen. When you finally do see the doctor he has to spend the next 45 min unphucking your records because they are incomplete. Once that is accomplished he spends 10 min with you on your issue because he has 20 more dudes behind you he needs to see. He tells you you need to make another appointment, so you go back to the front desk to make it and get told the system is down and you need to call in to make the appointment. You get back in the DAV van and spend the the next 3 hours with 10 other pissed off guys who just went through the same useless dance. The VA is broken and will likely never get fixed. Thankfully my only service connected issue is a bad shoulder. I can live with that, other guys aren't as lucky as I am.

Anyone using the VA as a shinning example of a great system is a phucktard.

 

That is great but nobody is proposing "VA for all" or "UK Healthcare for all" the proposal is "medicare for all" and patients all seem to love medicare.  Private providers would still be an vital part of the system but medicare would be setting reimbursement rates for those who choose to be insured.  Private insurers should also be able to get those same reimbursement rates if they choose to offer that type of plan.  If private insurance has better customer service and is more efficient than the government version people can vote with their wallets....very capitalist.

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