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toonkee

Hoover Dam Could "Bank" Solar and Wind Energy

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There's a big idea idea to use solar and wind energy to pump water back up the river, back into Lake Mead, so it can pass through the dam turbines again. Pretty wild.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/07/24/business/energy-environment/hoover-dam-renewable-energy.html

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4 minutes ago, toonkee said:

There's a big idea idea to use solar and wind energy to pump water back up the river, back into Lake Mead, so it can pass through the dam turbines again. Pretty wild.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/07/24/business/energy-environment/hoover-dam-renewable-energy.html

It’s used on a much smaller scale at reservoirs quite a bit now. Pump water upstream at night with cheap power. Use the turbines to generate power during peak demand. Repeat at night....

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1 hour ago, Old_SD_Dude said:

It’s used on a much smaller scale at reservoirs quite a bit now. Pump water upstream at night with cheap power. Use the turbines to generate power during peak demand. Repeat at night....

There was a private company who was asking for public funding to do this at Bear Lake near Logan. They wanted to build a reservior on the mountain above the lake. It looked feasible on paper, since unused power at night is ultimately wasted. But environmental concerns, specifically the five speciecis of fish native to the lake are unique and found nowhere else, killed the idea. Plus the developer seemed a little sketchy.

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Arizona, Nevada and So Cal going dry will force some outstanding innovation in eco freindly power generation. 

We Americans get really good at innovation in the 11th hour, when our backs are against the wall. 

Or, everyone will just have to move. Did they not notice the rapidly dropping water levels of their water supply when they kept building building and building? You could see the dropping water levels 12 years ago in Lake Mead. The remnants of the old town that got flooded by the lake started showing in 2005. You would think that would cause some to say hey, maybe we should stop growing this area? 

What are folks in that area gonna drink and bathe in? Beer?

 

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10 minutes ago, WilliamHicks said:

Arizona, Nevada and So Cal going dry will force some outstanding innovation in eco freindly power generation. 

We Americans get really good at innovation in the 11th hour, when our backs are against the wall. 

Or, everyone will just have to move. Did they not notice the rapidly dropping water levels of their water supply when they kept building building and building? You could see the dropping water levels 12 years ago in Lake Mead. The remnants of the old town that got flooded by the lake started showing in 2005. You would think that would cause some to say hey, maybe we should stop growing this area? 

What are folks in that area gonna drink and bathe in? Beer?

 

Recycling and desal in part. 

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18 minutes ago, WilliamHicks said:

Arizona, Nevada and So Cal going dry will force some outstanding innovation in eco freindly power generation. 

We Americans get really good at innovation in the 11th hour, when our backs are against the wall. 

Or, everyone will just have to move. Did they not notice the rapidly dropping water levels of their water supply when they kept building building and building? You could see the dropping water levels 12 years ago in Lake Mead. The remnants of the old town that got flooded by the lake started showing in 2005. You would think that would cause some to say hey, maybe we should stop growing this area? 

What are folks in that area gonna drink and bathe in? Beer?

 

Las Vegas and Nevada barely use any water out of the Colorado river compared to California who uses something like 90% of it.

Not that Las Vegas if it needs to isn't going to steal more and there is nothing California can do about it.

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1 hour ago, bluerules009 said:

Las Vegas and Nevada barely use any water out of the Colorado river compared to California who uses something like 90% of it.

Not that Las Vegas if it needs to isn't going to steal more and there is nothing California can do about it.

California gets 58% of the Lower Basin allocation, which is 29% of the overall. Problem for everyone, and most of all California (well, even more most of all Mexico), is that the river is over allocated. 

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15 minutes ago, Old_SD_Dude said:

California gets 58% of the Lower Basin allocation, which is 29% of the overall. Problem for everyone, and most of all California (well, even more most of all Mexico), is that the river is over allocated. 

I thought Nevada and Arizona both got around 5%.  Didn't realize Arizona had so much.   The point i was making though is that the 2,5 million people in the Vegas area are not the problem with colorado river usage like the quoted poster claimed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_River_Compact

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12 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

I thought Nevada and Arizona both got around 5%.  Didn't realize Arizona had so much.   The point i was making though is that the 2,5 million people in the Vegas area are not the problem with colorado river usage like the quoted poster claimed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_River_Compact

Yeah I’m not disagreeing with you. Nevada’s allocation is very small. AZ runs a lot down the open aquaduct to Phoenix. Mexico really gets screwed. You wouldn’t believe the trickle at the border. It doesn’t get anywhere near the Gulf of California where it should reach. As they say, Pobre Mexico, tan lejos a Dios y tan cerca los Estados Unidos.

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10 hours ago, Old_SD_Dude said:

California gets 58% of the Lower Basin allocation, which is 29% of the overall. Problem for everyone, and most of all California (well, even more most of all Mexico), is that the river is over allocated. 

After like 20 years of "drought" people in the lower basin are still wondering when it is going to end. :facepalm:

Over allocation is correct. The Colorado River allocations were based on data from one of the wettest periods on the River. Further, it is pretty amazing that over 2 million people in Nevada are relying on allocations based on an almost 100 yr old population figure of around a couple thousand.

Desalinization is the answer. Good luck getting it to happen in CA though. I think the US will become an importer of water within the next 20 yrs. (or an importer of all winter crops for the west as the Imperial Valley goes fallow... probably both eventually), which is why pissing off Mexico and Canada are really bad ideas. Mexico is most likely to make out really well in the next century on trade with the US. Hell, gringos may be moving there to work the fields if they can come up with the water.

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1 hour ago, SharkTanked said:

After like 20 years of "drought" people in the lower basin are still wondering when it is going to end. :facepalm:

Over allocation is correct. The Colorado River allocations were based on data from one of the wettest periods on the River. Further, it is pretty amazing that over 2 million people in Nevada are relying on allocations based on an almost 100 yr old population figure of around a couple thousand.

Desalinization is the answer. Good luck getting it to happen in CA though. I think the US will become an importer of water within the next 20 yrs. (or an importer of all winter crops for the west as the Imperial Valley goes fallow... probably both eventually), which is why pissing off Mexico and Canada are really bad ideas. Mexico is most likely to make out really well in the next century on trade with the US. Hell, gringos may be moving there to work the fields if they can come up with the water.

The SD County Water Authority has a desal plant in Carlsbad. It produces 50M gpd, which is enough for 400k people. There’s also a contract in place to purchase another 50M gpd from a desal plant under construction in Baja. When both are in place that will be about 25% of the County’s potable water. But I hear ya, it takes years to get these things approved. 

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I'm looking forward to water tariffs.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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1 hour ago, SharkTanked said:

After like 20 years of "drought" people in the lower basin are still wondering when it is going to end. :facepalm:

Over allocation is correct. The Colorado River allocations were based on data from one of the wettest periods on the River. Further, it is pretty amazing that over 2 million people in Nevada are relying on allocations based on an almost 100 yr old population figure of around a couple thousand.

Desalinization is the answer. Good luck getting it to happen in CA though. I think the US will become an importer of water within the next 20 yrs. (or an importer of all winter crops for the west as the Imperial Valley goes fallow... probably both eventually), which is why pissing off Mexico and Canada are really bad ideas. Mexico is most likely to make out really well in the next century on trade with the US. Hell, gringos may be moving there to work the fields if they can come up with the water.

Wyoming has more water than we use in the Green, IIRC we sell that water to Nevada. 

Also, there's a lot of water around the country, just not where people are moving. I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see large scale aqueduct projects that were in vogue, and then not, and then to my prediction in again. Someone is going to look at the Columbia and say "my that's a lot of CFS just flowing in to the sea..."

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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24 minutes ago, happycamper said:

Wyoming has more water than we use in the Green, IIRC we sell that water to Nevada. 

Also, there's a lot of water around the country, just not where people are moving. I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see large scale aqueduct projects that were in vogue, and then not, and then to my prediction in again. Someone is going to look at the Columbia and say "my that's a lot of CFS just flowing in to the sea..."

True, it will come down to costs. The numbers just to run a pipeline to the Eastern NV sources the Southern Nevada Water Authority has under rights were staggering to me (but probably not to someone in the oil/gas business). Also, I have a tough time seeing these projects materialize unless the Federal Gov't steps in.

But yes, it is strange that the highest growth areas seem to be the ones with the least natural water sources. Basically it is because water has still been cheap. If large water farming/transport projects are needed, the bill will be coming due and the cost of water will be a major growth limiter in the SW very soon. One of the biggest lunacies, in my mind, was the Southern Nevada Public Lands Mgmt Act which stipulates that monies from sales of BLM land (i.e. growth) only go to public recreational uses. It should've all, 100%, gone to water resource planning and procurement. Instead the whole system has been funded by system connection charges at the end, and it's just not enough for projects to bring water from outside the valley. If we had SNLPMA monies for the water projects, we'd probably already be importing water that otherwise would've gone unused. The system we have incentivizes growth, thereby exacerbating the problem.

For now, Nevada has bought shares and relies on banking agreements with other states to meet our needs from the CO River. Probably the biggest system that keeps us going are return flow credits. Basically we perpetually recycle almost our entire allotment. We are hitting a tipping point soon though. The conservation well is about to run dry. There will have to be a major water import project to Southern Nevada within the next 20 years.

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