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smltwnrckr

Confederate monuments

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60 minutes did a decent segment on the issue of confederate monuments last night. I'm sure any discussion here on the issue will be reasonable. 

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/the-history-and-future-of-confederate-monuments-2/

 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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3 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

60 minutes did a decent segment on the issue of confederate monuments last night. I'm sure any discussion here on the issue will be reasonable. 

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/the-history-and-future-of-confederate-monuments-2/

 

TBH, I don’t think most people here care that much as we aren’t in the South.  

Personally, monuments to the confederacy are the equivalent of participation trophies.  Congrats, you tried and failed to create your own nation.  

thelawlorfaithful, on 31 Dec 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:One of the rules I live by: never underestimate a man in a dandy looking sweater

 

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Just now, mugtang said:

TBH, I don’t think most people here care that much as we aren’t in the South.  

Personally, monuments to the confederacy are the equivalent of participation trophies.  Congrats, you tried and failed to create your own nation.  

Maybe, though it's clear a lot of people in here have certain beliefs about what liberal university professors are doing to brainwash their students. And I thought that the younger radical history professor came off way more reasonable and less reactionary than the old white guy whom many on this board want to see more of in American history departments.

 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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20 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

Maybe, though it's clear a lot of people in here have certain beliefs about what liberal university professors are doing to brainwash their students. And I thought that the younger radical history professor came off way more reasonable and less reactionary than the old white guy whom many on this board want to see more of in American history departments.

 

(I commented without watching the video, I will watch it now....don’t tell anybody). 

thelawlorfaithful, on 31 Dec 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:One of the rules I live by: never underestimate a man in a dandy looking sweater

 

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Ok I give up. I’ve tried watching it 3 times.  I sit through Anderson Cooper’s opening monologue, watch a commercial then it starts playing the next video about seaweed :rolleyes:

thelawlorfaithful, on 31 Dec 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:One of the rules I live by: never underestimate a man in a dandy looking sweater

 

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51 minutes ago, mugtang said:

TBH, I don’t think most people here care that much as we aren’t in the South.  

Personally, monuments to the confederacy are the equivalent of participation trophies.  Congrats, you tried and failed to create your own nation.  

Agree on both points.

I do note that we have monuments on all sides of issues in the US Historical past. 

You can drive around in the West and find monuments to Frontiersmen, US Cavalrymen, and Native Americans, many of whom were in conflict with one another over whatever at various points in time.

For whatever reason, having 'conflicting' monuments is totally acceptable to us out West, but as far as the Civil War monuments go, it's some evil thing.

The Confederacy was wrong on Slavery, PERIOD. Everyone knows that. To me, those monuments are simply a reminder of the mistakes of the past, best left alone, so that we just remember it all, and resolve never to repeat that tragedy. I don't believe that 'erasing' the monuments serves any useful purpose, since they're still a part of the history of the South, and "erasing" history has never gone well over the long term.

Auschwitz is a memorial now, not something razed to the ground to erase the past, likewise, the Confederate Monuments are a reminder of some big mistakes made in the past, things we should not soon forget.

 

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I agree with the two historians who argue against removing the statues, as they are an important chpater of our history, even if it represents arguably the ugliest chapter.

The idea of "recontextualizing" them by adding placards/plaques/post scripts to add historical context while retaining the monuments seems like a win-win IMO.

Great demonstration of objective journalism at its finest. 

St-Javelin-Sm.jpgChase.jpg 

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55 minutes ago, mugtang said:

Ok I give up. I’ve tried watching it 3 times.  I sit through Anderson Cooper’s opening monologue, watch a commercial then it starts playing the next video about seaweed :rolleyes:

that sucks. i'll try to fix the link later, though for those who care to watch, just google "60 minutes confederate monuments" and you'l find it. The segment is like 15 mins. 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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1 minute ago, smltwnrckr said:

that sucks. i'll try to fix the link later, though for those who care to watch, just google "60 minutes confederate monuments" and you'l find it. The segment is like 15 mins. 

It’s not your fault. It’s an issue with CBS. 

thelawlorfaithful, on 31 Dec 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:One of the rules I live by: never underestimate a man in a dandy looking sweater

 

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41 minutes ago, Thomas said:

Agree on both points.

I do note that we have monuments on all sides of issues in the US Historical past. 

You can drive around in the West and find monuments to Frontiersmen, US Cavalrymen, and Native Americans, many of whom were in conflict with one another over whatever at various points in time.

For whatever reason, having 'conflicting' monuments is totally acceptable to us out West, but as far as the Civil War monuments go, it's some evil thing.

The Confederacy was wrong on Slavery, PERIOD. Everyone knows that. To me, those monuments are simply a reminder of the mistakes of the past, best left alone, so that we just remember it all, and resolve never to repeat that tragedy. I don't believe that 'erasing' the monuments serves any useful purpose, since they're still a part of the history of the South, and "erasing" history has never gone well over the long term.

Auschwitz is a memorial now, not something razed to the ground to erase the past, likewise, the Confederate Monuments are a reminder of some big mistakes made in the past, things we should not soon forget.

 

People opposed to taking down confederate monuments do not look at them as our version of auschwitz. 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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1 minute ago, mugtang said:

It’s not your fault. It’s an issue with CBS. 

OK, i thought it was the wrong link i posted.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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12 minutes ago, mugtang said:

It’s not your fault. It’s an issue with CBS. 

Been experiencing a lot of fvckery with the interwebs today, even though diagnostics show I'm 5x5 all the way to our ISP.

St-Javelin-Sm.jpgChase.jpg 

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1 minute ago, TheSanDiegan said:

Been experiencing a lot of fvckery with the interwebs today, even though diagnostics show I'm 5x5 all the way to our ISP.

Probably the Russians.  Thankfully my blackmail check went through already so you should not have any mwcboard issues. 

thelawlorfaithful, on 31 Dec 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:One of the rules I live by: never underestimate a man in a dandy looking sweater

 

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Confirm the DGaF attitude abt the North vs South stuff from back east, it's beyond old.

Our Western ancestors sat idly by while their neighbors were rounded up into concentration camps. So it's not like we have room to judge anyways.

 

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1 minute ago, mugtang said:

Probably the Russians.  Thankfully my blackmail check went through already so you should not have any mwcboard issues. 

Vegas was better when the mob ran it.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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20 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

People opposed to taking down confederate monuments do not look at them as our version of auschwitz. 

You're missing my point.

I'm not saying they're the same thing. I'm saying they're similar in that erasing the past is not the best way to remember the unpleasant and awful events of the past. Pretending like either didn't happen, the Holocaust, or the US Civil War, is not an effective way to manage the education of current and future generations about these awful events.

We should have reminders of it, and we should think about it, so that it doesn't happen again.

 

Removing monuments is erasing things, not dealing with the historical realities.

 

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8 minutes ago, mugtang said:

Probably the Russians.  Thankfully my blackmail check went through already so you should not have any mwcboard issues. 

Cool.

...and a free pony painted with rainbows for every poster.

:thumbsup:

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It’s easy to judge issues in the present day from historical times. To really understand it you need to place yourself back in history and the thought process of those at the time. For example:

In the 50’s you could ask most Americans about gay people and most responses would be derogatory. Flash forward 60 years and most responses would be totally different. Another example:

During WW2 the Japanese were a hated enemy. Most Americans were fearful of their Japanese neighbors and we put them in detainment camps. Flash forward and people judge how horrible we were to do that to them.

I guess what I’m trying to say is have some historical perspective about issues and don’t smugly prejudge those people because if you were living in that era you might have the same viewpoints as them.

In summary, don’t erase yesterday, learn from it, and try to do better. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Thomas said:

You're missing my point.

I'm not saying they're the same thing. I'm saying they're similar in that erasing the past is not the best way to remember the unpleasant and awful events of the past. Pretending like either didn't happen, the Holocaust, or the US Civil War, is not an effective way to manage the education of current and future generations about these awful events.

We should have reminders of it, and we should think about it, so that it doesn't happen again.

 

Removing monuments is erasing things, not dealing with the historical realities.

 

No, I'm not missing your point. Your point is just wrong. Those monuments don't function as a public reckoning with a troubled past, and generally people who are critical of those monuments are not arguing that people should pretend like the past didn't happen. 

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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24 minutes ago, mugtang said:

Probably the Russians.  Thankfully my blackmail check went through already so you should not have any mwcboard issues. 

Well, f*ck Russia then. They're cockblocking me from jumping all over some sweet, sweet Amazeballs Prime Day specials. :foottap:

St-Javelin-Sm.jpgChase.jpg 

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