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ph90702

UNLV to Join P5

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That ex-UNLV president talked about the Carnegie research rankings which I have used over the years when talking which MWC school would be able to make the jump to P5.

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UNLV could be a juggernaut. And I guess inevitable is arguable.
You could say the same thing about SJSU though.
Both schools are located in Large Metropolitan areas. For different demographics, they both could pull a CRAP load of money.
They both have the ability to significantly improve their mediocre academics. (Yes, I realize each school has a couple of Great programs, but each school has several underachieving programs too.)
The trick is getting a school prez & AD that really know what they are doing.
Over the next 100 years, I guess there is some chance of that happening but looking back on historical performance, it's no guarantee.
So until you get some leaders that have a vision, plan, and the guts to pull it off, let's see what you can do in the money sports of the MWC first.

I don't ever see SJSU getting there (or even competing in the MWC) and I think UNLV is 20+ years off.
So let's not count that chicken 20+ years before the P5 egg hatches.

 

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9 hours ago, BobbyBoSox said:

UNLV could be a juggernaut. And I guess inevitable is arguable.
You could say the same thing about SJSU though.
Both schools are located in Large Metropolitan areas. For different demographics, they both could pull a CRAP load of money.
They both have the ability to significantly improve their mediocre academics. (Yes, I realize each school has a couple of Great programs, but each school has several underachieving programs too.)
The trick is getting a school prez & AD that really know what they are doing.
Over the next 100 years, I guess there is some chance of that happening but looking back on historical performance, it's no guarantee.
So until you get some leaders that have a vision, plan, and the guts to pull it off, let's see what you can do in the money sports of the MWC first.

I don't ever see SJSU getting there (or even competing in the MWC) and I think UNLV is 20+ years off.
So let's not count that chicken 20+ years before the P5 egg hatches.

 

UNLV is not far away from Tier 1.

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19 hours ago, BobbyBoSox said:

UNLV could be a juggernaut. And I guess inevitable is arguable.
You could say the same thing about SJSU though.
Both schools are located in Large Metropolitan areas. For different demographics, they both could pull a CRAP load of money.
They both have the ability to significantly improve their mediocre academics. (Yes, I realize each school has a couple of Great programs, but each school has several underachieving programs too.)
The trick is getting a school prez & AD that really know what they are doing.
Over the next 100 years, I guess there is some chance of that happening but looking back on historical performance, it's no guarantee.
So until you get some leaders that have a vision, plan, and the guts to pull it off, let's see what you can do in the money sports of the MWC first.

I don't ever see SJSU getting there (or even competing in the MWC) and I think UNLV is 20+ years off.
So let's not count that chicken 20+ years before the P5 egg hatches.

 

It's pretty crystal clear that the quality of academics alone doesn't mean jack when it comes to P5 membership...it's more about the research dollars and you could attribute the quality of education to that as well.  I can see Boise State as a P5 member but they are much further away from even qualifying for that than UNLV.  The Big 12 requires at least Tier 2 (unless they now require Tier 1 for expansion members).  Boise isn't even Tier 2 in those rankings.  Right now only CSU, Hawaii, and UNM are Tier 1 schools within the MWC.

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On 7/7/2018 at 11:38 AM, Jalapeno said:

That ex-UNLV president talked about the Carnegie research rankings which I have used over the years when talking which MWC school would be able to make the jump to P5.

Carnegie classifications are so broad as to be useless.  What matters on the academic side is AAU membership or at least being in the conversation as being a candidate for membership.  After that, undergraduate reputation and prestige are secondary.  That being said, the B1G taking Nebraska (and now possibly Oklahoma) and the AAC taking Louisville seem to demonstrate that if other metrics are in place, academic considerations will be pushed aside.

SteelCityBlue

November 24th, 2018 at 9:10 PM ^

I'm looking forward to a new head coach who isn't a cud-chewing autistic retard.

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48 minutes ago, Victor Maitlin said:

Carnegie classifications are so broad as to be useless.  What matters on the academic side is AAU membership or at least being in the conversation as being a candidate for membership.  After that, undergraduate reputation and prestige are secondary.  That being said, the B1G taking Nebraska (and now possibly Oklahoma) and the AAC taking Louisville seem to demonstrate that if other metrics are in place, academic considerations will be pushed aside.

Then why did a former college president mention those rankings?  It was proof that what I was saying the entire time was correct and if you read Frank The Tank's blogs, he talks about those things and if you do some research, he could very well be well connected to the University of Illinois (he's a lawyer) where the B1G Academic Alliance (was called the CIC) is located and any school that wants in the B1G must be able to be admitted into the B1G Academic Alliance.  If you can't get into the AA, you can't get into the B1G.

Look above to see my comment about academic rankings...the Feds/corporations won't just simply hand out research dollars if they don't feel that the school academics are up to snuff.  Just look at pretty much every P5 school and see where they are ranked when it comes to research rankings.  Oklahoma State might be the only non-VHRU school in a P5 conference.

Nebraska was AAU and the B1G knew that they were going to be booted from the AAU but still let them in so therefore the AAU requirement is not set in stone.  Louisville is/was VHRU when they were admitted into the ACC.  VHRU status on a consistent basis is the minimum for P5 membership.

I'll just take your response as a Nevada fan who is just in envy of their rival.

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4 hours ago, Jalapeno said:

Then why did a former college president mention those rankings?  It was proof that what I was saying the entire time was correct and if you read Frank The Tank's blogs, he talks about those things and if you do some research, he could very well be well connected to the University of Illinois (he's a lawyer) where the B1G Academic Alliance (was called the CIC) is located and any school that wants in the B1G must be able to be admitted into the B1G Academic Alliance.  If you can't get into the AA, you can't get into the B1G.

Look above to see my comment about academic rankings...the Feds/corporations won't just simply hand out research dollars if they don't feel that the school academics are up to snuff.  Just look at pretty much every P5 school and see where they are ranked when it comes to research rankings.  Oklahoma State might be the only non-VHRU school in a P5 conference.

Nebraska was AAU and the B1G knew that they were going to be booted from the AAU but still let them in so therefore the AAU requirement is not set in stone.  Louisville is/was VHRU when they were admitted into the ACC.  VHRU status on a consistent basis is the minimum for P5 membership.

I'll just take your response as a Nevada fan who is just in envy of their rival.

And the fact that Louisville is ranked as VHRU just proves my point about the Carnegie classifications being so overly broad as to define nothing.  Louisville is pretty much a shitty local commuter school with a middling medical school attached to it.  It has far more in common with UNLV (or Nevada for that matter) than it does with Pitt, Duke, UNC or UVA.  Again, the ACC was more than willing to push academic considerations aside to take the best fit athletically.  And anyone who thinks that Nebraska's Carnegie Classification makes them anything close to an academic peer of the rest of the Big Ten schools, doesn't know what they're talking about.

SteelCityBlue

November 24th, 2018 at 9:10 PM ^

I'm looking forward to a new head coach who isn't a cud-chewing autistic retard.

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2 hours ago, Victor Maitlin said:

And the fact that Louisville is ranked as VHRU just proves my point about the Carnegie classifications being so overly broad as to define nothing.  Louisville is pretty much a shitty local commuter school with a middling medical school attached to it.  It has far more in common with UNLV (or Nevada for that matter) than it does with Pitt, Duke, UNC or UVA.  Again, the ACC was more than willing to push academic considerations aside to take the best fit athletically.  And anyone who thinks that Nebraska's Carnegie Classification makes them anything close to an academic peer of the rest of the Big Ten schools, doesn't know what they're talking about.

I think if conference commissioners were to speak honestly, I'd bet some would admit if they had it to do over again, they wouldn't have expanded to the extent they did. 

I'm guessing the B10 would rather not have Nebraska, the MW would rather not have San Jose....

"Don't underestimate Joe Biden's ability to F@*k things up."

Barack Obama

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On 7/9/2018 at 1:15 PM, Victor Maitlin said:

And the fact that Louisville is ranked as VHRU just proves my point about the Carnegie classifications being so overly broad as to define nothing.  Louisville is pretty much a shitty local commuter school with a middling medical school attached to it.  It has far more in common with UNLV (or Nevada for that matter) than it does with Pitt, Duke, UNC or UVA.  Again, the ACC was more than willing to push academic considerations aside to take the best fit athletically.  And anyone who thinks that Nebraska's Carnegie Classification makes them anything close to an academic peer of the rest of the Big Ten schools, doesn't know what they're talking about.

Not every VHRU school is part of a P5 conference but if you compare the P5 to G5 conferences, you will notice that outside of like five P5 schools, all are VHRU schools while G5 has a few VHRUs.  Again, that ex UNLV president validated the talking points of a blogger like Frank the Tank (which I got the idea about P5 college presidents looking at VHRU schools).  

And as a CU fan, I am aware about the academic jokes tied to the Cornhuskers.  I don't think Penn State was that highly rated even before being approached by the Big Ten in the early 1980's about conference membership.  Arizona got AAU membership in its eighth year as a Pac-10 membership.  If a prestigious conference like the PAC could include Arizona State despite its academic reputation, it is obvious that strong academics is not a good benchmark but the research rankings is what matters more.

Academics are not the same as Research Rankings.  Any school can have good academics but if they don't have the research dollars which determines those rankings, it's more difficult to sustain an athletics program in a P5 conference.

Some homework for you to look at:

VHRU rankings: http://carnegieclassifications.iu.edu/lookup/srp.php?clq={"basic2005_ids"%3A"15"}&start_page=standard.php&backurl=standard.php&limit=0,50

HRU rankings: http://carnegieclassifications.iu.edu/lookup/srp.php?clq={"basic2005_ids"%3A"16"}&start_page=standard.php&backurl=standard.php&limit=0,50

Moderate rankings: http://carnegieclassifications.iu.edu/lookup/srp.php?clq={"basic2005_ids"%3A"17"}&start_page=standard.php&backurl=standard.php&limit=0,50

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8 hours ago, Jalapeno said:

Not every VHRU school is part of a P5 conference but if you compare the P5 to G5 conferences, you will notice that outside of like five P5 schools, all are VHRU schools while G5 has a few VHRUs.  Again, that ex UNLV president validated the talking points of a blogger like Frank the Tank (which I got the idea about P5 college presidents looking at VHRU schools).  

And as a CU fan, I am aware about the academic jokes tied to the Cornhuskers.  I don't think Penn State was that highly rated even before being approached by the Big Ten in the early 1980's about conference membership.  Arizona got AAU membership in its eighth year as a Pac-10 membership.  If a prestigious conference like the PAC could include Arizona State despite its academic reputation, it is obvious that strong academics is not a good benchmark but the research rankings is what matters more.

Academics are not the same as Research Rankings.  Any school can have good academics but if they don't have the research dollars which determines those rankings, it's more difficult to sustain an athletics program in a P5 conference.

Some homework for you to look at:

VHRU rankings: http://carnegieclassifications.iu.edu/lookup/srp.php?clq={"basic2005_ids"%3A"15"}&start_page=standard.php&backurl=standard.php&limit=0,50

HRU rankings: http://carnegieclassifications.iu.edu/lookup/srp.php?clq={"basic2005_ids"%3A"16"}&start_page=standard.php&backurl=standard.php&limit=0,50

Moderate rankings: http://carnegieclassifications.iu.edu/lookup/srp.php?clq={"basic2005_ids"%3A"17"}&start_page=standard.php&backurl=standard.php&limit=0,50

I can speak a bit to the PSU situation.  The Paterno cult likes to believe that JoePed turned the place into a serious university, but they were invited into the AAU in the late 50s, and were a solid top 25 public when the B1G took them in.  They've also always been something of a powerhouse when it comes to doing DoD research.  The CIC definitely helped them improve though there was already a foundation of strong academics and research in place.  Today, I'd put them as probably the 6th best public in the Big Ten right after the Wisconsin-Ohio State-Illinois-Minnesota grouping, and maybe even a part of that group.  They were much stronger academically in 1991 than Nebraska was in 2010.  Nebraska will always be a head scratcher.  They literally bring nothing except football to the table: weak academics, weak basketball, weak Olympic sports, no major metropolitan media markets.  And since they haven't moved the needle for the conference in football, I wouldn't be surprised if there's more than a little buyer's remorse among the B1G Presidents.

If you want to get a sense of the real pecking order for American research universities public and private, this is the best synopsis.  It evaluates schools based on research funding, endowment and fundraising resources, faculty quality, breadth and scope of doctoral and post-doc programs and undergraduate selectivity.  Publics ranked just against other publics starts on p.20.  Publics and privates grouped together starts on p.12.

http://mup.umass.edu/sites/default/files/mup-2015-top-american-research-universities-annual-report.pdf

SteelCityBlue

November 24th, 2018 at 9:10 PM ^

I'm looking forward to a new head coach who isn't a cud-chewing autistic retard.

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