ACLU has documented the abuses of migrant kids

[smltwnrckr]

1 hour ago, Broncomare said:

welfare?  taxes.  

There are strong arguments to suggest that immigrants (illegal and legal) score better than natives on both of these issues. 

[pokebball]

4 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

There are strong arguments to suggest that immigrants (illegal and legal) score better than natives on both of these issues. 

Most of those arguments, at least the ones I've seen, are selective and do not consider the entire societal cost.  For example, only considering federal government revenues and welfare.  When illegals need certain levels of healthcare they use emergency rooms who are obligated and do serve them.  Without much ability to pay, that hospital absorbs the cost and it gets passed on to everyone else.  Their use of social service organizations are costs to all of us and are seldom measured in the arguments you reference.

I do understand they pay into social security, for example, and seldom receive any benefits.  SS seems to be the greatest of those arguments you reference.

[smltwnrckr]

19 minutes ago, pokebball said:

Most of those arguments, at least the ones I've seen, are selective and do not consider the entire societal cost.  For example, only considering federal government revenues and welfare.  When illegals need certain levels of healthcare they use emergency rooms who are obligated and do serve them.  Without much ability to pay, that hospital absorbs the cost and it gets passed on to everyone else.  Their use of social service organizations are costs to all of us and are seldom measured in the arguments you reference.

I do understand they pay into social security, for example, and seldom receive any benefits.  SS seems to be the greatest of those arguments you reference.

What percentage of overall healthcare costs to these emergency room visits account for? And further, what percentage of those emergency room costs that the hospitals have to cover due to illegals using those services are a direct result of human prohibition? And what percentage of those emergency costs covered by everyone else overall are actually incurred by illegals, and and what rate to illegals represent those costs vs native born people who have been uninsured or underinsured? 

The fact is that it is very difficult to properly account for their use of social services overall, but there are plenty of places that give a good go at it and demonstrate in good faith that the societal costs of illegal immigration are largely overstated.  You know it's not as simple as immigrants, legal and illegal, are more dangerous and come here to suck up welfare. I know it's not as simple as immigrants, legal and illegal, make for a utopia. But I have yet to hear a compelling argument grounded in fact that even illegal immigration is not a net benefit. The problem is that the direction that my conversation with you on this matter would likely go in (trying to discuss the real costs and benefits in terms of schools, health care, legal regimes, economic development, birth rates, crime rates, local and state benefits, etc. etc.) is not the direction these conversations tend to go on a national scale.

 

[bluerules009]

1 hour ago, renoskier said:

Ummm......what if they're hungry and need to feed their family now?

That's the major problem with our current system, we're obviously not letting enough folks immigrate and it takes too long for the ones who do.

People who break the law go to jail.  It works that way in every country. 

 

[madmartigan]

50 minutes ago, cosinama said:

Oh...Best Buy?!?  I’ve been waiting outside this old Circuit City for 3 months. I will be right there you dick hat. 

Dick hat.. that is amazing. 

[pokebball]

7 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

What percentage of overall healthcare costs to these emergency room visits account for? And further, what percentage of those emergency room costs that the hospitals have to cover due to illegals using those services are a direct result of human prohibition? And what percentage of those emergency costs covered by everyone else overall are actually incurred by illegals, and and what rate to illegals represent those costs vs native born people who have been uninsured or underinsured? 

The fact is that it is very difficult to properly account for their use of social services overall, but there are plenty of places that give a good go at it and demonstrate in good faith that the societal costs of illegal immigration are largely overstated.  You know it's not as simple as immigrants, legal and illegal, are more dangerous and come here to suck up welfare. I know it's not as simple as immigrants, legal and illegal, make for a utopia. But I have yet to hear a compelling argument grounded in fact that even illegal immigration is not a net benefit. The problem is that the direction that my conversation with you on this matter would likely go in (trying to discuss the real costs and benefits in terms of schools, health care, legal regimes, economic development, birth rates, crime rates, local and state benefits, etc. etc.) is not the direction these conversations tend to go on a national scale.

 

Yeah, I agree that neither of us can really present solid facts to support our disagreement on this matter.  I know I pay a good share of state and local taxes to support all the infrastructure in and around my community (my share anyways).  I contribute significantly to local charities that support the many social service organizations - united way, meals on wheels, health clinics, boys and girls clubs, overnight shelters, salvation army, etc. all of which serve illegal immigrants (and I'm comfortable with this and feel it's appropriate).  Our schools serve illegal immigrant children and are largely funded with state and local taxes.

There are many ways I pay in that illegals don't.  I think common sense supports my belief that illegals take from what legals would otherwise receive in the many social services available to us.

[Akkula]

58 minutes ago, pokebball said:

Yeah, I agree that neither of us can really present solid facts to support our disagreement on this matter.  I know I pay a good share of state and local taxes to support all the infrastructure in and around my community (my share anyways).  I contribute significantly to local charities that support the many social service organizations - united way, meals on wheels, health clinics, boys and girls clubs, overnight shelters, salvation army, etc. all of which serve illegal immigrants (and I'm comfortable with this and feel it's appropriate).  Our schools serve illegal immigrant children and are largely funded with state and local taxes.

There are many ways I pay in that illegals don't.  I think common sense supports my belief that illegals take from what legals would otherwise receive in the many social services available to us.

Just make immigrants pay a social tax and pass a criminal background check and vigorously enforce sanctions against employers who try to pay a substandard wage on the backs of society.  You can even do E-verify and remit the tax right from payroll.  Problem solved.   The reason this won't be implemented is because the alt-right doesn't care about a workable system.   They want to protect our "heritage" which is code for we hate brown people. 

[Old_SD_Dude]

1 hour ago, bluerules009 said:

People who break the law go to jail.  It works that way in every country. 

 

The vast majority of people who break the law don’t go to jail. They get warnings, tickets, fines, probation, community service, etc. Illegal entry to the US is a misdemeanor. Most persons who commit misdemeanors definitely don’t go to jail. 

[bluerules009]

8 hours ago, Old_SD_Dude said:

The vast majority of people who break the law don’t go to jail. They get warnings, tickets, fines, probation, community service, etc. Illegal entry to the US is a misdemeanor. Most persons who commit misdemeanors definitely don’t go to jail. 

They definatly in every country get deported back to where they came from.

You are thinking like an emotional cripple.  No modern country with a functional government allows illegal immigration like we do.

People who commit misdemeanors go to jail everyday in this country from drunk driving to passing bad checks. Misdemeanors most defiantly can get you sent to jail.

[edluvar]

There comes a point in time when you really have to look at the people who make excuses for trump at every turn and wonder about their moral compass.   

[Thomas]

50 minutes ago, edluvar said:

There comes a point in time when you really have to look at the people who make excuses for trump at every turn and wonder about their moral compass.   

There also comes a time when you hear people openly advocating the ignoring of Federal Laws, and calling Federal Law Enforcement "Terrorists", when you have to start wondering why the Progressive Left seems to prefer Lawlessness and utter Anarchy to Law & Order.

[bluerules009]

2 hours ago, edluvar said:

There comes a point in time when you really have to look at the people who make excuses for trump at every turn and wonder about their moral compass.   

Says a supporter of baby killing.  Yeah no one cares when you speak about moral compasses.

[edluvar]

53 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

Says a supporter of baby killing.  Yeah no one cares when you speak about moral compasses.

People really don’t care anymore.   There are 2 sides to history.  Trumps supporters are occupying a special place.  Up there with separate but equal, and final solution craziness.   It’s really pathetic to observe.   Deplorable was being generous.   

[Akkula]

5 hours ago, edluvar said:

There comes a point in time when you really have to look at the people who make excuses for trump at every turn and wonder about their moral compass.   

People who are still Trump supporters will be remembered by future generations very poorly and they will be a cautionary tale. 

[Akkula]

4 hours ago, Thomas said:

There also comes a time when you hear people openly advocating the ignoring of Federal Laws, and calling Federal Law Enforcement "Terrorists", when you have to start wondering why the Progressive Left seems to prefer Lawlessness and utter Anarchy to Law & Order.

But I am sure you would follow federal law when they "com fur muh gunz", right? It is too bad Trump and the Republicans are so weak that they can't even pass a bill through the house that they completely control.   Not even Republicans think his proposals are good so he is going to perpetually kick the can because the alt right controls Republicans but the country strongly disagrees with their racist agenda. Trump and his zero tolerance policy lasted about 10 minutes and now he is going to be going back to "catch and release"

[Old_SD_Dude]

6 hours ago, Thomas said:

There also comes a time when you hear people openly advocating the ignoring of Federal Laws, and calling Federal Law Enforcement "Terrorists", when you have to start wondering why the Progressive Left seems to prefer Lawlessness and utter Anarchy to Law & Order.

If Law & Order means locking up thousands of children because their parents committed misdemeanors then I, for one, will take a little less Law & Order. The alternative is not anarchy. 

[NVGiant]

18 hours ago, happycamper said:

It is absolutely the best and brightest. It's the people with enough entrepreneurial spirit to risk everything and come here.

Immigrants make up disproportionate number of entrepreneurs, business owners, academic standouts. We don't need people who already got their masters in women's studies and who expect a comfortable 75k/year desk job with 30 hours a week so they can afford better than frickin Woodford Reserve. We have that. We need people with the fire to succeed. After a couple generations of winning in the US, of having the American Dream be realized, families lose that fire. We lost that fire. So, we bring in people to keep it burning. 

This is well said.

[thelawlorfaithful]

16 hours ago, smltwnrckr said:

What percentage of overall healthcare costs to these emergency room visits account for? And further, what percentage of those emergency room costs that the hospitals have to cover due to illegals using those services are a direct result of human prohibition? And what percentage of those emergency costs covered by everyone else overall are actually incurred by illegals, and and what rate to illegals represent those costs vs native born people who have been uninsured or underinsured? 

The fact is that it is very difficult to properly account for their use of social services overall, but there are plenty of places that give a good go at it and demonstrate in good faith that the societal costs of illegal immigration are largely overstated.  You know it's not as simple as immigrants, legal and illegal, are more dangerous and come here to suck up welfare. I know it's not as simple as immigrants, legal and illegal, make for a utopia. But I have yet to hear a compelling argument grounded in fact that even illegal immigration is not a net benefit. The problem is that the direction that my conversation with you on this matter would likely go in (trying to discuss the real costs and benefits in terms of schools, health care, legal regimes, economic development, birth rates, crime rates, local and state benefits, etc. etc.) is not the direction these conversations tend to go on a national scale.

 

 

15 hours ago, pokebball said:

Yeah, I agree that neither of us can really present solid facts to support our disagreement on this matter.  I know I pay a good share of state and local taxes to support all the infrastructure in and around my community (my share anyways).  I contribute significantly to local charities that support the many social service organizations - united way, meals on wheels, health clinics, boys and girls clubs, overnight shelters, salvation army, etc. all of which serve illegal immigrants (and I'm comfortable with this and feel it's appropriate).  Our schools serve illegal immigrant children and are largely funded with state and local taxes.

There are many ways I pay in that illegals don't.  I think common sense supports my belief that illegals take from what legals would otherwise receive in the many social services available to us.

It’s nice to read, for what it’s worth.

[sactowndog]

On 6/21/2018 at 3:31 PM, mugtang said:

These abuses are pretty phucking terrible:

https://www.aclu.org/news/aclu-obtains-documents-showing-widespread-abuse-child-immigrants-us-custody

Anyone that doesn’t think a portion of the right are racist +++++s isn’t paying attention.  With Trump these people have crawled out from under the rocks they hid under.

[Thomas]

11 hours ago, bluerules009 said:

Says a supporter of baby killing.  Yeah no one cares when you speak about moral compasses.

LOL.

 

Baby killing.

Its not the 1960s, and this also isn't an abortion discussion.

 

 

Waiting for you leftists to propose "Family" imprisonment for US citizen prisoners, since you're trying to give illegals rights that even US citizens fo not currently have.

(Think about that...)