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RiverCityBronco

Decline In Hunters Threatens How U.S. Pays For Conservation

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I know it probably comes off as elitist but I have to say the people you run into in the recreation areas where you pay are, in my experience, more respectful of each other and the land than those elsewhere. I realize it may just be a byproduct of a state with 33 million people.

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5 minutes ago, SharkTanked said:

Yes, you are spoiled. Expect those use fees to go up too. Even Nevada is getting pretty outrageous on its use fees. As the population expands, the trails and campgrounds get proportionally more use and thus require proportionally more maintenance. Further, the new ones who come from states where "they just have people who do that" will end up wrecking the joint and not voluntarily maintaining it. This requires more state/federal employees to maintain the land. It's coming to Idaho. It's coming FROM California. I've lived in Vegas for over 40 years and I've seen the progression first hand.

The Church is very difficult and expensive to get into. There really are no casual users who aren't accompanied by professional guides (like HMHB). 

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4 minutes ago, Old_SD_Dude said:

I know it probably comes off as elitist but I have to say the people you run into in the recreation areas where you pay are, in my experience, more respectful of each other and the land than those elsewhere. I realize it may just be a byproduct of a state with 33 million people.

I agree with you, but I also think there are different degrees of respect. The folks HMHB encounter in the Church have a whole different level of respect than the folks out at Lake Mead Recreation Area, as an example.

1 minute ago, RogueStout said:

The Church is very difficult and expensive to get into. There really are no casual users who aren't accompanied by professional guides (like HMHB). 

I hope it stays that way.

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Just now, Old_SD_Dude said:

I know it probably comes off as elitist but I have to say the people you run into in the recreation areas where you pay are, in my experience, more respectful of each other and the land than those elsewhere. I realize it may just be a byproduct of a state with 33 million people.

Opposite experience here in Idaho.  Most the campgrounds near Boise, on the tributaries of the Boise River, the Payette river and it's tributaries and the like are pay, they get trashed.  As you go further and more remote you have more and more non pay.  The Wilderness areas are all non pay.  Generally if you are the type that will drive 7 hours from Boise over hairy mountain roads to hike The Church you have a deep appreciation for wilderness.

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11 minutes ago, SharkTanked said:

Yes, you are spoiled. Expect those use fees to go up too. Even Nevada is getting pretty outrageous on its use fees. As the population expands, the trails and campgrounds get proportionally more use and thus require proportionally more maintenance. Further, the new ones who come from states where "they just have people who do that" will end up wrecking the joint and not voluntarily maintaining it. This requires more state/federal employees to maintain the land. It's coming to Idaho. It's coming FROM California. I've lived in Vegas for over 40 years and I've seen the progression first hand.

Idaho really needs to build a Trump-esk wall while encouraging all young myn to drive Subarus and drink IPAs

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1 hour ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Opposite experience here in Idaho.  Most the campgrounds near Boise, on the tributaries of the Boise River, the Payette river and it's tributaries and the like are pay, they get trashed.  As you go further and more remote you have more and more non pay.  The Wilderness areas are all non pay.  Generally if you are the type that will drive 7 hours from Boise over hairy mountain roads to hike The Church you have a deep appreciation for wilderness.

Backpacking you really don't run into any problem folks. In the Sierras though you never go more than a few hours without seeing someone. In order to get truly remote I have to go to southern Utah. Once you get a couple hours from a trailhead the very few people you run into (and you can go days without seeing anyone) are great. 

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1 minute ago, SharkTanked said:

I agree with you, but I also think there are different degrees of respect. The folks HMHB encounter in the Church have a whole different level of respect than the folks out at Lake Mead Recreation Area, as an example.

I hope it stays that way.

It's the logistics.  The roads are hairy.  I usually have to clear a road with a chainsaw at least once a year.  It scares a lot of people who are not used to that level of remoteness.  I have seen people have nervous breakdowns on the roads.  I have had people refuse to move and want to go back after seeing the amount of bear shit on the trails.  It's just not for everybody.  Maybe 10% of people who go camping every summer will ever get more than a few miles into it.

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5 minutes ago, SharkTanked said:

I hope it stays that way.

As far as I know it pretty much has to. There are limited numbers of rafting permits, no roads can be built, no machines are allowed in the bounds (not even game carts or bicycles which I am more than fine with). The place is fuking remote as hell. There is just really no way to get in there without rafting or flying, both of which are problematic and expensive. The alternative is to backpack in which is a none-starter for almost everyone because it would take so long. 

 

3 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Opposite experience here in Idaho.  Most the campgrounds near Boise, on the tributaries of the Boise River, the Payette river and it's tributaries and the like are pay, they get trashed.  As you go further and more remote you have more and more non pay.  The Wilderness areas are all non pay.  Generally if you are the type that will drive 7 hours from Boise over hairy mountain roads to hike The Church you have a deep appreciation for wilderness.

100%

I NEVER go to a "developed" camp ground. Fuk that noise. We go deep and just set up.

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14 hours ago, Jackrabbit said:

Took the afternoon off,  caught an 18" rainbow on a 5wt within an hours drive....i actually feel bad for folks who cant pull this off. But not too bad.  Plz stay in the city.

I'm even more spoiled. Went fishing on the San Juan yesterday afternoon and caught 7-8 trout over 18" and a bunch under that in 3 hours. I'm happy to pay over a $100 for licenses and stamps in NM and Colorado in addition to the $50 dollar parking permit. I'd pay for mountain bike trails as well. Considering I spend $10 dollars a ticket at the theater, all these fees are a bargain.

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5 minutes ago, Old_SD_Dude said:

Backpacking you really don't run into any problem folks. In the Sierras though you never go more than a few hours without seeing someone. In order to get truly remote I have to go to sothern Utah. Once you get a couple hours from a trailhead the very few people you run into (and you can go days without seeing anyone) are great. 

I would love to get you up here man.  Went camping early this April on the East Fork of the South Fork of the Salmon.  Caught this little guy on my 5 wt while fishing for West Slope Cut Throat.

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It is always fun when you have to thaw out your drinks.  Got below 15 every night.

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11 minutes ago, RogueStout said:

As far as I know it pretty much has to. There are limited numbers of rafting permits, no roads can be built, no machines are allowed in the bounds (not even game carts or bicycles which I am more than fine with). The place is fuking remote as hell. There is just really no way to get in there without rafting or flying, both of which are problematic and expensive. The alternative is to backpack in which is a none-starter for almost everyone because it would take so long. 

 

100%

I NEVER go to a "developed" camp ground. Fuk that noise. We go deep and just set up.

The only place I will camp at a developed camp ground is Johnson Creek Near Yellow pine.  4 hours away from Boise and there is never anybody else there.  Especially before the road technically opens.  Great winter and spring camping area.

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13 hours ago, WilliamHicks said:

There is a solution that wont cost us anything. It will also help with the forest fire problems we have out west every year, in a very big way. 

Managed logging and replanting our national forests. Good managed logging can produce mega profits to pay for Conservation and also reduce the mega expense of fighting wildfires. It isn't just climate change that causes forest fires. When the "Spotted Owl" fiasco got logging pretty much shut down in Idaho in the 90's, it really hurt the economy of northern Idaho and all that now unmanaged growth resulted in much worse forest fires the last ten years or so. 

Unmanaged growth Forests burn. And the cost of fighting those fires are astronomical. 

Lets carefully log our national forests, not clear cutting entire mountain sides but carefully planned and managed harvesting of forests and a systematic replanting program. The cost of lumber would even drop, we wouldn't need to buy expensive cedar from Canada anymore either. 

Many of the trees that got "hugged" by the extreme left in the early 90's have burned down by now. If the areas surrounding were properly mangaged and logged, those old growth trees would still be standing. 

Folks out here in the southern part of the state get mad about managed logging.  Last summer there was a bunch of dead wood up there and it caught on fire and it was devastating.  These groups won't even let you cut the dead stuff down these days.

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29 minutes ago, RogueStout said:

As far as I know it pretty much has to. There are limited numbers of rafting permits, no roads can be built, no machines are allowed in the bounds (not even game carts or bicycles which I am more than fine with). The place is fuking remote as hell. There is just really no way to get in there without rafting or flying, both of which are problematic and expensive. The alternative is to backpack in which is a none-starter for almost everyone because it would take so long. 

 

Biking would be way too dangerous in the Church anyways.  When I am with people new to backpacking I never hike more than 5 miles in a day.  Injuries happen when you get tired and a hyper extended knee or even a sprained ankle 20 miles deep can turn a fun trip into a disaster.  

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43 minutes ago, NMpackalum said:

I'm even more spoiled. Went fishing on the San Juan yesterday afternoon and caught 7-8 trout over 18" and a bunch under that in 3 hours. I'm happy to pay over a $100 for licenses and stamps in NM and Colorado in addition to the $50 dollar parking permit. I'd pay for mountain bike trails as well. Considering I spend $10 dollars a ticket at the theater, all these fees are a bargain.

I propose a competition.  Whoever catches the biggest trout this summer, from a river, will receive this T Shirt.  I will exempt myself from the competition.  Pic or it didn't happen, of course.

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50 minutes ago, Jack Bauer said:

Folks out here in the southern part of the state get mad about managed logging.  Last summer there was a bunch of dead wood up there and it caught on fire and it was devastating.  These groups won't even let you cut the dead stuff down these days.

I know and they have created the forest fire issue that we now have to endure. Managed logging can seriously reduce the forest fires and pay for conservation and also pay for the forest service itself, which has been financially gutted. We should not and need not have to pay for using our public lands. We also do not need to sell our public lands like many of the republicans want to do. Once we sell thos elands, we lose access to them. 

Both sides need to see the big picture, take on the Green lobby and explain how managed logging is good for everyone. 

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27 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

I propose a competition.  Whoever catches the biggest trout this summer, from a river, will receive this T Shirt.  I will exempt myself from the competition.  Pic or it didn't happen, of course.

Image result for public land owner t shirt

Dude, check your pm's on broncofans. Lets go fishing. 

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1 hour ago, Jack Bauer said:

Folks out here in the southern part of the state get mad about managed logging.  Last summer there was a bunch of dead wood up there and it caught on fire and it was devastating.  These groups won't even let you cut the dead stuff down these days.

Managed logging is smart but is a money loser.  Cheap timber from Canada and the faster growing forests in the south have really hurt western logging.  I am oK with managed logging just realize it will have to be heavily subsidized to be profitable if done at a larger scale

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7 minutes ago, Billings said:

Managed logging is smart but is a money loser.  Cheap timber from Canada and the faster growing forests in the south have really hurt western logging.  I am oK with managed logging just realize it will have to be heavily subsidized to be profitable if done at a larger scale

Time for a canadian timber tariff. 

 

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