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mugtang

Perfect example of the need to end birth right citizenship

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24 minutes ago, happycamper said:

Nah. We're the 3rd most populous nation in the world. We are the most expensive country in the world to have a kid in. If some Chinese and Russian millionaires want their kids to be able to breathe the sweet air of freedom, then go for it. Bigger pie for all of us that way, deprives our biggest geopolitical rivals of human talent too. 

Or Putin and China are just playing the extremely long game against us and one day one of these kids will become president.  :hmmm: 

thelawlorfaithful, on 31 Dec 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:One of the rules I live by: never underestimate a man in a dandy looking sweater

 

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13 minutes ago, modestobulldog said:

#mrga?

Mcga?!

thelawlorfaithful, on 31 Dec 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:One of the rules I live by: never underestimate a man in a dandy looking sweater

 

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37 minutes ago, mugtang said:

But it wouldn’t be retroactive.  It would be going forward so it wouldn’t effect anybody already here.  As for your coworker, changing the citizenship requirements would have no effect on him.  Kids brought here because their parents broke the law shouldn’t be punished.  I’m all for letting them stay.  

What I would do with immigration is people brought here as children because of their parents would be given permanent legal residency and the ability to apply for citizenship once they reach the age of 18.  For everybody else you came here illegally and have committed no other serious crimes (I don’t care about traffic tickets...) they should be given legal status but never be allowed to apply for citizenship as a punishment for breaking our laws.  This would bring them out of the shadows and into the system.  Going forward after the above two things are implemented anybody caught in the country illegally would be immediately deported to their country of origin. 

As to your first point, no I don’t have the numbers but birth tourism is an issue and has been going on for awhile.  https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/feds-raid-l-maternity-hotel-birth-tourists-n315996

That's not an unfair position, though I'm not sure what making the kids wait til their 18 would accomplish.

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Just now, sebasour said:

That's not an unfair position, though I'm not sure what making the kids wait til their 18 would accomplish.

They would be legal adults and the ability to make legal decisions.

thelawlorfaithful, on 31 Dec 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:One of the rules I live by: never underestimate a man in a dandy looking sweater

 

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2 hours ago, happycamper said:

Step one: Are you pregnant?

Step two: Deny visa

Seriously not complicated

For that matter, this is the province of people who are extremely wealthy and want their kids to be Americans. This is unamerican how?

Furthermore, how would you be a citizen without birthright citizenship?

Finally, you get the same response gun control people do. Pass an amendment.

There would be more dead rabbits than you could shake a stick at.

Will someone please think of the bunnies?

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1 hour ago, mugtang said:

Or Putin and China are just playing the extremely long game against us and one day one of these kids will become president.  :hmmm: 

Like Kenya couldn't pull off with Obama?

Step 1. Sneak out of the country, go to Africa to have a baby.

Step 2. Sneak back in with newborn baby.

Step 3. Make friends a local at hospitals and have them place birth notices in local papers, and file phony birth certificate.

Step 4. Wait.....

Step 5.Get elected President.

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1 hour ago, happycamper said:

Nah. We're the 3rd most populous nation in the world. We are the most expensive country in the world to have a kid in. If some Chinese and Russian millionaires want their kids to be able to breathe the sweet air of freedom, then go for it. Bigger pie for all of us that way, deprives our biggest geopolitical rivals of human talent too. 

Exactly! Folks, think this through. Our current birthrate of 1.8-1.9 births/woman is among the lowest in the world. Well below the worldwide rate of 2.5 and also significantly below the Replacement rate of 2.1. We shouldn't be doing anything to discourage new birthright citizens; this is also a good argument for DACA.

These young folks are our future. We are a nation of immigrants, it's not a weakness, it's our strength.

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13 minutes ago, jackmormon said:

Like Kenya couldn't pull off with Obama?

Step 1. Sneak out of the country, go to Africa to have a baby.

Step 2. Sneak back in with newborn baby.

Step 3. Make friends a local at hospitals and have them place birth notices in local papers, and file phony birth certificate.

Step 4. Wait.....

Step 5.Get elected President.

 

The fun thing with that conspiracy theory is that Obama's mom was from Kansas, which I believe means he would be a US Citizen by default the second he was born. In other words he'd be a natural born citizen even if he was born Nairobi, and therefor he'd be eligible for The Oval Office.

 

It's the same reason why Ted Cruz was eligible. 

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11 minutes ago, renoskier said:

Exactly! Folks, think this through. Our current birthrate of 1.8-1.9 births/woman is among the lowest in the world. Well below the worldwide rate of 2.5 and also significantly below the Replacement rate of 2.1. We shouldn't be doing anything to discourage new birthright citizens; this is also a good argument for DACA.

These young folks are our future. We are a nation of immigrants, it's not a weakness, it's our strength.

Nobody is saying we need to end immigration.  

thelawlorfaithful, on 31 Dec 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:One of the rules I live by: never underestimate a man in a dandy looking sweater

 

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2 minutes ago, renoskier said:

No of course not but if we really need more young people, and I believe we do, why end birthright citizenship?

Because it’s being abused.  This can be part of a larger immigration package where it’s made easier for people to come here legally.  But somebody hoping a border, popping out a kid and then going back (see the Russians and Chinese) shouldn’t entitle that child to American citizenship. 

thelawlorfaithful, on 31 Dec 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:One of the rules I live by: never underestimate a man in a dandy looking sweater

 

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21 minutes ago, mugtang said:

Because it’s being abused.  This can be part of a larger immigration package where it’s made easier for people to come here legally.  But somebody hoping a border, popping out a kid and then going back (see the Russians and Chinese) shouldn’t entitle that child to American citizenship. 

How is it abused? Those people are ones who can manage to get visas, who can pay to fly over here, who can stay here for over a month, who can pay health care costs of a birth out of pocket, who can afford to stay a bit longer for the baby to grow, who can afford to fly home, and who have the resources to use American citizenship to their financial or political advantage. It's effectively letting us steal the children of the elites of our rivals and it looks like it is their fault.

Isn't this exactly what our nation is set up to be? A shining nation on a hill, so impressive that the aristocrats of nations whose systems are not similar to ours schedule their children's births here? 

This isn't "abuse", this is a long term benefit for us. Don't eat the golden goose because it shits, sell the shit as fertilizer. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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1 hour ago, happycamper said:

How is it abused? Those people are ones who can manage to get visas, who can pay to fly over here, who can stay here for over a month, who can pay health care costs of a birth out of pocket, who can afford to stay a bit longer for the baby to grow, who can afford to fly home, and who have the resources to use American citizenship to their financial or political advantage. It's effectively letting us steal the children of the elites of our rivals and it looks like it is their fault.

Isn't this exactly what our nation is set up to be? A shining nation on a hill, so impressive that the aristocrats of nations whose systems are not similar to ours schedule their children's births here? 

This isn't "abuse", this is a long term benefit for us. Don't eat the golden goose because it shits, sell the shit as fertilizer. 

And what about the people who aren't rich that come over the border and have a kid. Then that kid's medical costs are paid by the tax payer. Then the MOM stays in America but isn't educated and possibly gets on welfare. More tax payers dollars go to support a US born baby and the illegal mom. Repeat that by a few million. 

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/422921/very-real-economic-costs-birthright-citizenship-ian-tuttle

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11 minutes ago, Rebelbacker said:

And what about the people who aren't rich that come over the border and have a kid. Then that kid's medical costs are paid by the tax payer. Then the MOM stays in America but isn't educated and possibly gets on welfare. More tax payers dollars go to support a US born baby and the illegal mom. Repeat that by a few million. 

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/422921/very-real-economic-costs-birthright-citizenship-ian-tuttle

I want to be actually able to retire with caregivers, so it seems like we need to encourage this a little more. 

You know all those other people in my age cohort who aren't having babies? They're going to be competition for nursing, etc care when I hit that age, and they aren't making babies so they aren't making future nurses, etc.

A demographic death trap is WAY WAY WAY WAY worse than having hundreds of thousands of children born to illegal immigrants. Hell, those illegal immigrants are about the only thing keeping us from looking at a decades-long recession a la Russia or Japan. 

Also, actually use a credible source. I don't cite the Daily Kos.

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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3 hours ago, mugtang said:

Or Putin and China are just playing the extremely long game against us and one day one of these kids will become president.  :hmmm: 

Why would they have to? They can easy use money/lobbying to influence policy.

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23 hours ago, happycamper said:

I want to be actually able to retire with caregivers, so it seems like we need to encourage this a little more. 

You know all those other people in my age cohort who aren't having babies? They're going to be competition for nursing, etc care when I hit that age, and they aren't making babies so they aren't making future nurses, etc.

A demographic death trap is WAY WAY WAY WAY worse than having hundreds of thousands of children born to illegal immigrants. Hell, those illegal immigrants are about the only thing keeping us from looking at a decades-long recession a la Russia or Japan. 

Also, actually use a credible source. I don't cite the Daily Kos.

Well if demographics concerns you this much you should be pro-life. 

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4 minutes ago, Rebelbacker said:

Well if demographics concerns you this much you should be pro-life. 

I'm pro reducing abortion, I don't agree with the vast majority of pro-lifers on an effective strategy to do that. Coat hangers won't disappear if abortion becomes illegal, whereas actually supporting unwed mothers and helping them with job training (Wyoming actually has a great program in Climb Wyoming) would do more, IMO. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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On 1/10/2018 at 10:16 AM, renoskier said:

Exactly! Folks, think this through. Our current birthrate of 1.8-1.9 births/woman is among the lowest in the world. Well below the worldwide rate of 2.5 and also significantly below the Replacement rate of 2.1. We shouldn't be doing anything to discourage new birthright citizens; this is also a good argument for DACA.

These young folks are our future. We are a nation of immigrants, it's not a weakness, it's our strength.

Well there are somethings we can do to help up that birthrate among Americans.  First, drop the idea a family needs to stop at only two kids.  Since you have many married/cohabitating couples with no or one kid not to mention how many single folk out there, to meet that replacement ratio you need families with 3, 4, or more kids.  Quit treating larger families as if they are horrible or insane.  After our son was born (our second child born, our first a daughter) the nurses all asked us if we were thinking of trying permanent birth control since we had the "perfect" family.  Will we have more kids, at this point who knows, we hope so, but we have had experiences that reinforce that there are no guarantees.  I won't judge a childless, one child, or two child household, but as long as our replacement ratio is below 2.1, can we quit judging larger households?  There is serious pressure on families to stop at two kids, this is just dumb with where we are today.  It would be one thing if we were at a large replacement ratio, but we aren't.   

 

1 minute ago, happycamper said:

I'm pro reducing abortion, I don't agree with the vast majority of pro-lifers on an effective strategy to do that. Coat hangers won't disappear if abortion becomes illegal, whereas actually supporting unwed mothers and helping them with job training (Wyoming actually has a great program in Climb Wyoming) would do more, IMO. 

I think we are actually seeing a shift in the pro-life movement.  You are seeing more and more emphasis put on this and there is a local center up in Sheridan that focuses on supporting mothers (unwed, single, or married) and providing families with job training to help them not choose abortion.  I never really participated in the rallies, marches, etc. I have my doubts about their effectiveness.  Giving to and supporting an organization that actually helps women, child, and men in a tough spot, I think that does far more to change our culture for the better.  I know of similar centers in the Denver area, Houston area, and a number of other areas.    

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15 minutes ago, Jimbo_Poke said:

Well there are somethings we can do to help up that birthrate among Americans.  First, drop the idea a family needs to stop at only two kids.  Since you have many married/cohabitating couples with no or one kid not to mention how many single folk out there, to meet that replacement ratio you need families with 3, 4, or more kids.  Quit treating larger families as if they are horrible or insane.  After our son was born (our second child born, our first a daughter) the nurses all asked us if we were thinking of trying permanent birth control since we had the "perfect" family.  Will we have more kids, at this point who knows, we hope so, but we have had experiences that reinforce that there are no guarantees.  I won't judge a childless, one child, or two child household, but as long as our replacement ratio is below 2.1, can we quit judging larger households?  There is serious pressure on families to stop at two kids, this is just dumb with where we are today.  It would be one thing if we were at a large replacement ratio, but we aren't.   

 

I think we are actually seeing a shift in the pro-life movement.  You are seeing more and more emphasis put on this and there is a local center up in Sheridan that focuses on supporting mothers (unwed, single, or married) and providing families with job training to help them not choose abortion.  I never really participated in the rallies, marches, etc. I have my doubts about their effectiveness.  Giving to and supporting an organization that actually helps women, child, and men in a tough spot, I think that does far more to change our culture for the better.  I know of similar centers in the Denver area, Houston area, and a number of other areas.    

This is bullshit. I completely disagree with your opinion that there is pressure put on families to stop at two children. Other than a nurse mentioning permanent birth control, where is the ongoing "pressure" coming from? If anything, because more and more folks are getting away from traditional organized religion, couples are more likely to make family planning decisions on their own without being "pressured" to have large families. Also, young people are marrying later and couples are delaying having children, often into their 30's

Why try to re-invent the wheel and increase our birth rate when we already have millions of folks who apparently want to come here to have their babies? I just don't get it, is a baby born to an American couple somehow superior than one born to an immigrant? No one comes right out and says so but reading between the lines seems to suggest an underlying xenophobia; often based upon the notion of American exceptionalism.

With regard to the pro life movement, I hope you're right. As an American, I've always been pro-choice and have many times posted that if the pro-life folks spent half as much time and money trying to help women and couples, instead of trying to deny them their rights, the number of abortions could be reduced significantly.

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