Jump to content
RamSack

Will Gonzaga ever be worthy of a MW invite?

Recommended Posts

The WCC also added Pacific.  That program has taken a major step back since their long-time coach Bob Thomason retired.  Maybe they're coming back with Damon Stoudamire?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Wyovanian said:

Well, other than Michigan, Michigan State, Utah, Florida, North Carolina, Ucla, Arizona, Oregon, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, LSU, Wisconsin, Notre Dame, Baylor...

North Carolina and Arizona aren't good football schools. Utah isn't successful in basketball. LSU hasn't been successful in years. Notre Dame is not very good at football or basketball.

 

Michigan, Michigan State, Florida, Oregon, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Wisconsin, Baylor, Louisville are the only examples of successful basketball schools who place football first and have success in that sport.

Compare them versus

Duke, Gonzaga, Kansas, Kentucky, Indiana, Villanova, Georgetown, North Carolina (obviously a basketball school), Arizona (also clearly a basketball school), Wake Forest, Xavier, Memphis, VCU, Wichita State, Butler, George Mason, Dayton, Uconn

 

As you can see, elite MBB can be played without access to quality football programs. In the last twenty years, MBB has seen more success with terrible or eliminated football programs than football successful programs. 

 

Once you add Uconn, it's impossible to make the argument that football first schools do better than basketball focused schools. The evidence, objectively, says they don't.

  • Like 1

BYU, not sure if you know this but the WCC tourney is in Vegas too... What conf will you join when you can't win that one anymore?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, blind_squirrel54 said:

Just curious, by which metrics?

Conference RPI, wins in the tourney, ranked teams, etc.  I think Gonzaga's won more games in the tourney in two years than this entire league has in five.

 

31 minutes ago, hawkeyelobo said:

Gonzaga yes if they want. BYU no. BYU can continue kicking ass in the WCC with Portland and Seattle. They don't need us, nor do we want them. 

LOL, I'm sure they "want".

Image result for jim mcmahon with lavell edwardsImage result for byu logoImage result for byu boise state end zone hail maryc07489bb8bb7f5bad3672877f8b04f34.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you want to argue which conference would, hypothetically, be more appealing based solely on conference strength, you have to compute the WCC's strength sans Gonzaga and then compare. I imagine, if you did that with multiple metrics, the MW would come out on top, in a majority of them, every year. The MW might come out i too (by the thinnest of margins) even with Gonzaga included. 

With that said, I have a hard time seeing Gonzaga leaving for the MW. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, blind_squirrel54 said:

If you want to argue which conference would, hypothetically, be more appealing based solely on conference strength, you have to compute the WCC's strength sans Gonzaga and then compare. I imagine, if you did that with multiple metrics, the MW would come out on top, in a majority of them, every year. The MW might come out i too (by the thinnest of margins) even with Gonzaga included. 

With that said, I have a hard time seeing Gonzaga leaving for the MW. 

That's stupid because Gonzaga has always been a member of the WCC.  I mean, I guess we could pretend Alabama isn't in the SEC, or if Oklahoma isn't in the Big 12.

The bottom line is that the WCC has been slowly growing and improving over the past 5 years, and the MWC has been falling back.  It's fallen back of the AAC, and it's falling back of the A10, WCC, and getting closer in stature to the Colonial and MVAC.  If teams here don't start turning it around, it's going to be hard to see this league as more than a 1 bid league.  I'm just going by conf RPI over the last few years.

Image result for jim mcmahon with lavell edwardsImage result for byu logoImage result for byu boise state end zone hail maryc07489bb8bb7f5bad3672877f8b04f34.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Jack Bauer said:

Conference RPI, wins in the tourney, ranked teams, etc.  I think Gonzaga's won more games in the tourney in two years than this entire league has in five.

 

LOL, I'm sure they "want".

Why no Sagarin or KenPom? Probably harder to find. 

Gonzaga has also won more games in two years than the rest of the WCC has in five. 

I need to catch up here. Is the debate about which conference is better or which conference's strength would be more attractive to Gonzaga? They are two different things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, #1Stunner said:

You are clueless.

I repeat.  That addition of BYU to the WCC has solidified and stabilized the WCC.  Gonzaga is thrilled that there are 3 quality teams year in, and year out, in the WCC.

 

Direct Quotes:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765619647/BYU-basketball-WCC-coaches-like-addition-of-BYU-to-their-league.html

"They've really enhanced our profile," Gonzaga coach Mark Few told the Deseret News at WCC media day last October. "People can look at our conference and legitimately say that it's a three-bid league. It helped our fight of making it a national-caliber league.

Few also likes the budding rivalry between the 'Zags and the Cougars.

"Both programs and the kids in both programs are highly competitive," he said. "There's a mutual respect. Coach (Dave) Rose is a great coach, but more importantly, he's a great guy. It's a healthy rivalry."

Saint Mary's coach Randy Bennett not only enjoys what BYU brings to the WCC, but he also appreciates being able to play in a venue like the Marriott Center.

"The addition of BYU has changed the game for our league — for the better. The BYU name is national and the quality of their basketball program is very good," Bennett said. "Now within our league, we have two more cracks at getting a top-30 or top-50 win, RPI-wise. Then you're going to a place that holds 21,000 seats. That sells, even for opponents. In our conference, we play in some great atmospheres. It enhances our conference."

Hey, we're all polite to our neighbors' faces.

And when was the WCC ever "unstable"? Sounds like you're looking for credit for doing no harm...

  • Like 3

Image result for h.l. mencken quotes

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Jack Bauer said:

That's stupid because Gonzaga has always been a member of the WCC.  I mean, I guess we could pretend Alabama isn't in the SEC, or if Oklahoma isn't in the Big 12.

The bottom line is that the WCC has been slowly growing and improving over the past 5 years, and the MWC has been falling back.  It's fallen back of the AAC, and it's falling back of the A10, WCC, and getting closer in stature to the Colonial and MVAC.  If teams here don't start turning it around, it's going to be hard to see this league as more than a 1 bid league.  I'm just going by conf RPI over the last few years.

it depends on what the argument is. If the MW and WCC are having a hypothetical contest to "earn or woo" Gonzaga, then it isn't stupid as you'd want to look at what group of teams would be more attractive. Otherwise, yes, it is stupid. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, blind_squirrel54 said:

Why no Sagarin or KenPom? Probably harder to find. 

Gonzaga has also won more games in two years than the rest of the WCC has in five. 

I need to catch up here. Is the debate about which conference is better or which conference's strength would be more attractive to Gonzaga? They are two different things.

Sagarin has four MWC rated above 100.  Boise (94), CSU (93), SDSU (77), and Nevada (55).

The WCC has 3 rated above 100.  Gonzaga (1), SMU (24), and BYU (75). 

For the purposes of this exercise, I'm going to count teams rated below 100 as crappy and irrelevant to the conference strength.  If you want to split hairs and say the MWC has slightly fewer garbage teams (+150 rating) or more average teams (100-150) then have at it.  I'll stick with the quality at the top.  Nobody is chest thumping about the teams in their league that are rating out at 145.

Image result for jim mcmahon with lavell edwardsImage result for byu logoImage result for byu boise state end zone hail maryc07489bb8bb7f5bad3672877f8b04f34.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, Runnin'Redneck said:

North Carolina and Arizona aren't good football schools. Utah isn't successful in basketball. LSU hasn't been successful in years. Notre Dame is not very good at football or basketball.

 

Michigan, Michigan State, Florida, Oregon, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Wisconsin, Baylor, Louisville are the only examples of successful basketball schools who place football first and have success in that sport.

Compare them versus

Duke, Gonzaga, Kansas, Kentucky, Indiana, Villanova, Georgetown, North Carolina (obviously a basketball school), Arizona (also clearly a basketball school), Wake Forest, Xavier, Memphis, VCU, Wichita State, Butler, George Mason, Dayton, Uconn

 

As you can see, elite MBB can be played without access to quality football programs. In the last twenty years, MBB has seen more success with terrible or eliminated football programs than football successful programs. 

 

Once you add Uconn, it's impossible to make the argument that football first schools do better than basketball focused schools. The evidence, objectively, says they don't.

Utah is the only school to have number one draft picks for both the NFL and NBA in the same season. Yes, lately Utah Basketball has been down, but I can say the same for both Arizona and North Carolina Football. Over the length of their programs, they are all competitive in both sports.

In our own conference- SDSU, Boise State, Nevada, Fresno, and Utah State have been competitive in (and out) of conference in both sports. Hell, in the late 80's, Wyoming Football and Basketball were the best in the conference at the same time.

Lately, Duke and Kentucky have made noise in football, and in the recent past, Wake Forest, Kansas, and UConn had solid football teams.

Do you NEED a good football program to compete and succeed in basketball? No. But do you need to be "basketball-first" to succeed in basketball? No again.

  • Like 2

Image result for h.l. mencken quotes

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Jack Bauer said:

Sagarin has four MWC rated above 100.  Boise (94), CSU (93), SDSU (77), and Nevada (55).

The WCC has 3 rated above 100.  Gonzaga (1), SMU (24), and BYU (75). 

For the purposes of this exercise, I'm going to count teams rated below 100 as crappy and irrelevant to the conference strength.  If you want to split hairs and say the MWC has slightly fewer garbage teams (+150 rating) or more average teams (100-150) then have at it.  I'll stick with the quality at the top.  Nobody is chest thumping about the teams in their league that are rating out at 145.

I agree with this. I may have just misinterpreted what the debate was. If the larger point is "The Mountain West needs to get it together and do it soon", I also agree. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Wyovanian said:

Utah is the only school to have number one draft picks for both the NFL and NBA in the same season. Yes, lately Utah Basketball has been down, but I can say the same for both Arizona and North Carolina Football. Over the length of their programs, they are all competitive in both sports.

In our own conference- SDSU, Boise State, Nevada, Fresno, and Utah State have been competitive in (and out) of conference in both sports. Hell, in the late 80's, Wyoming Football and Basketball were the best in the conference at the same time.

Lately, Duke and Kentucky have made noise in football, and in the recent past, Wake Forest, Kansas, and UConn had solid football teams.

Do you NEED a good football program to compete and succeed in basketball? No. But do you need to be "basketball-first" to succeed in basketball? No again.

 

Doing both football and basketball well is incredibly difficult and expensive. The only MWC team that isn't mediocre in football is Boise State University. They're the only team who competes against BCS teams and wins victories. SDSU is tier 2 in football, able to beat 50% of the worst BCS teams. Wyoming isn't much better.

If you want to build football, or football and basketball, then go ahead. But don't pretend that football is necessary in any way, shape, or form to be elite in college basketball. 

BYU, not sure if you know this but the WCC tourney is in Vegas too... What conf will you join when you can't win that one anymore?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Wyovanian said:

Utah is the only school to have number one draft picks for both the NFL and NBA in the same season. Yes, lately Utah Basketball has been down, but I can say the same for both Arizona and North Carolina Football. Over the length of their programs, they are all competitive in both sports.

In our own conference- SDSU, Boise State, Nevada, Fresno, and Utah State have been competitive in (and out) of conference in both sports. Hell, in the late 80's, Wyoming Football and Basketball were the best in the conference at the same time.

Lately, Duke and Kentucky have made noise in football, and in the recent past, Wake Forest, Kansas, and UConn had solid football teams.

Do you NEED a good football program to compete and succeed in basketball? No. But do you need to be "basketball-first" to succeed in basketball? No again.

 

3 minutes ago, Runnin'Redneck said:

 

Doing both football and basketball well is incredibly difficult and expensive. The only MWC team that isn't mediocre in football is Boise State University. They're the only team who competes against BCS teams and wins victories. SDSU is tier 2 in football, able to beat 50% of the worst BCS teams. Wyoming isn't much better.

If you want to build football, or football and basketball, then go ahead. But don't pretend that football is necessary in any way, shape, or form to be elite in college basketball. 

I see you're a "graduate" of Clark County School District reading programs...

Image result for h.l. mencken quotes

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Wyovanian said:

This is like packing for your trip to the moon. It isn't going to happen. The PAC-12 isn't going to invite a Jesuit school with no football program. Not ever.

I get that.  I'm just saying that's what it would take to get them to leave.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Wyovanian said:

 

I see you're a "graduate" of Clark County School District reading programs...

 

It's not only unnecessary, but unrelated, and perhaps a hindrance.

BYU, not sure if you know this but the WCC tourney is in Vegas too... What conf will you join when you can't win that one anymore?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Wyovanian said:

Holy sh-t!!! YOU got something? And buildings aren't toppling and people aren't flying into orbit?

I think that Gonzaga needs to get with schools like UNLV, San Diego State, etc. to form a basketball only conference.  I think that BYU, St. Mary's, and New Mexico could also be added.  There's not really anyone else in the West who would be appealing.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Will Gonzaga ever be worthy of a MW invite?

Maybe if the Zags win the national championship. However, this conference is just so effing great that just one might not do it, right? 

  • Like 2

Boom goes the dynamite.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, SleepingGiantsFan said:

Will Gonzaga ever be worthy of a MW invite?

Maybe if the Zags win the national championship. However, this conference is just so effing great that just one might not do it, right? 

I think the football requirement is stupid.  Football membership is only relevant for the P5 conferences.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, ph90702 said:

I think that Gonzaga needs to get with schools like UNLV, San Diego State, etc. to form a basketball only conference.  I think that BYU, St. Mary's, and New Mexico could also be added.  There's not really anyone else in the West who would be appealing.

Gonzaga couldn't be less interested in doing that. Why spoil your competitive advantage by adding competition for the auto bid that you basically control?

And UNLV is appealing? They haven't even been relevant since Kruger bolted...

Image result for h.l. mencken quotes

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...