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thelawlorfaithful

The Mystery of Oak Island

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Came across this info today, supposedly a Roman sword was found off Oak Island. There are a few articles and this "Pultizer" guy sounds shady, but here's one link:

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/unraveling-origins-roman-sword-discovered-oak-island-005112

They talk about the show, but I don't recall it being discussed. If the Romans made it there, seems like a game changer on whom else could have as well.

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I'm really screwing the pooch on this one. Sorry guys, new baby. I've been doing the research, there is just a lot of it and it goes out into the weeds.

 

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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9 hours ago, SFtoVA said:

Came across this info today, supposedly a Roman sword was found off Oak Island. There are a few articles and this "Pultizer" guy sounds shady, but here's one link:

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/unraveling-origins-roman-sword-discovered-oak-island-005112

They talk about the show, but I don't recall it being discussed. If the Romans made it there, seems like a game changer on whom else could have as well.

Very interesting. The problem I have with this theory, and the other pre-Colombian exchange possibilities, is how is it possible there wasn't evidence of a serious outbreak of disease. Though I could be wrong, I recall reading Natives were dying far inland of diseases when no one within hundreds of miles had even seen a white man. It seems like if Romans made it to Nova Scotia some interaction with the Natives would have occurred, with the predictable outbreak of deadly disease experienced in the Columbia exchange. Wouldn't there be stories of such a sickness spreading throughout the land in the oral histories? Or maybe there is, I don't know. @youngrebelfan40 maybe you can enlighten me on this stuff?

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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14 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

Very interesting. The problem I have with this theory, and the other pre-Colombian exchange possibilities, is how is it possible there wasn't evidence of a serious outbreak of disease. Though I could be wrong, I recall reading Natives were dying far inland of diseases when no one within hundreds of miles had even seen a white man. It seems like if Romans made it to Nova Scotia some interaction with the Natives would have occurred, with the predictable outbreak of deadly disease experienced in the Columbia exchange. Wouldn't there be stories of such a sickness spreading throughout the land in the oral histories? Or maybe there is, I don't know. @youngrebelfan40 maybe you can enlighten me on this stuff?

Any "Roman" artifacts were brought after Viking, and most likely Colombian, contacts. These kinds of artifacts pop up from time to time and they are almost invariably found to be either hoaxes or removed from context (like hey, we found these roman coins... with a bunch of 17th century English stuff). Interestingly, there are no disease or even really contact with a distant people stories pre-1492 I'm aware of. 

There remains a lack of evidence for any meaningful contact pre 900s, if you can even call that meaningful. Personally, I find it likely that English fisherman had contacts with Native peoples from the 1470s and it's even possible one or two Japanese fishermen might have been swept up on the Western seaboard in the 15th century, but other than that and the short-lived Norse encounter there's not even remotely sufficient evidence for anyone else, despite the abundant (and at times quixotic) theories that abound. 

And even if say, the Romans or Phoenicians managed to contact Paleo-Indians, there's no clear indication that such a contact created any meaningful ripples or effects on indegenous culture. Although it would be kind of interesting, it wouldn't really matter in the grand scheme of things if nothing came of it within the American historical and anthropological fields. Although I'm sure the antiquities peoples' minds would be blown that any people in the Ancient Mediterranean could travel that far. Hell, from what I've read of Pytheas the very limits of their world were the British Isles and Scandinavia, and it's a wonder they even made it there. 

On 12/1/2016 at 12:26 PM, WyomingCoog said:

I own a vehicle likely worth more than everything you own combined and just flew first class (including a ticket for a 2 1/2 year old), round trip to Las Vegas and I'm not 35 yet. When you accomplish something outside of finishing a book, let me know. When's the last time you saw a 2 year old fly first class in their own seat? Don't tell me about elite.  

28 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

I’d happily compare IQ’s with you any day of the week.

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18 minutes ago, youngrebelfan40 said:

Any "Roman" artifacts were brought after Viking, and most likely Colombian, contacts. These kinds of artifacts pop up from time to time and they are almost invariably found to be either hoaxes or removed from context (like hey, we found these roman coins... with a bunch of 17th century English stuff). Interestingly, there are no disease or even really contact with a distant people stories pre-1492 I'm aware of. 

There remains a lack of evidence for any meaningful contact pre 900s, if you can even call that meaningful. Personally, I find it likely that English fisherman had contacts with Native peoples from the 1470s and it's even possible one or two Japanese fishermen might have been swept up on the Western seaboard in the 15th century, but other than that and the short-lived Norse encounter there's not even remotely sufficient evidence for anyone else, despite the abundant (and at times quixotic) theories that abound. 

And even if say, the Romans or Phoenicians managed to contact Paleo-Indians, there's no clear indication that such a contact created any meaningful ripples or effects on indegenous culture. Although it would be kind of interesting, it wouldn't really matter in the grand scheme of things if nothing came of it within the American historical and anthropological fields. Although I'm sure the antiquities peoples' minds would be blown that any people in the Ancient Mediterranean could travel that far. Hell, from what I've read of Pytheas the very limits of their world were the British Isles and Scandinavia, and it's a wonder they even made it there. 

How about the spread of disease upon contact? It was long ago, but I'd read disease spread much faster and deeper into the continent than did contact with Europeans, so much so that disease was reaching tribes before word of their coming did (this was the carolinas I believe). Am I off on this? 

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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Just now, thelawlorfaithful said:

How about the spread of disease upon contact? It was long ago, but I'd read disease spread much faster and deeper into the continent than did contact with Europeans, so much so that disease was reaching tribes before word of their coming did (this was the carolinas I believe). Am I off on this? 

Yes, disease spread far in advance of actual contact with Europeans due to extensive trade networks within the North American mainland. This caused massive demographic upheavals that destroyed entire ways of life (e.g. Mississippian kingdoms) and produced new economic , political, and social formations before Europeans even encountered them. 

On 12/1/2016 at 12:26 PM, WyomingCoog said:

I own a vehicle likely worth more than everything you own combined and just flew first class (including a ticket for a 2 1/2 year old), round trip to Las Vegas and I'm not 35 yet. When you accomplish something outside of finishing a book, let me know. When's the last time you saw a 2 year old fly first class in their own seat? Don't tell me about elite.  

28 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

I’d happily compare IQ’s with you any day of the week.

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10 minutes ago, youngrebelfan40 said:

Yes, disease spread far in advance of actual contact with Europeans due to extensive trade networks within the North American mainland. This caused massive demographic upheavals that destroyed entire ways of life (e.g. Mississippian kingdoms) and produced new economic , political, and social formations before Europeans even encountered them. 

Thanks, I thought I'd remembered it right. Taking your debunker hat off for a second, do you suppose a limited interaction with around say the 12th or 13th centuries would be enough to set of the viral confligration seen later upon contact? Say maybe 50 Europeans coming into contact with members of a few tribes at most for a short period of time.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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3 hours ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

Thanks, I thought I'd remembered it right. Taking your debunker hat off for a second, do you suppose a limited interaction with around say the 12th or 13th centuries would be enough to set of the viral confligration seen later upon contact? Say maybe 50 Europeans coming into contact with members of a few tribes at most for a short period of time.

Well, I'm not an epidemiologist or an expert on disease transmission but from my knowledge of historical examples even short contacts with Europeans, especially Europeans with livestock or European children (classic disease carriers) could set off an epidemic in a virgin population. It would also depend on how isolated the tribe that contacted them was. A classic example is the De Soto expedition, which consisted of several hundred Europeans and wandered around aimlessly looking for gold for a few years murdering Indians and spreading diseases across the American southeast in the 1540s. It ended up putting the nail in the coffin on vast complex Mississippian mound-building societies that really had no other direct contacts with Europeans through a series of epidemic outbreaks that occurred shortly after, A hundred years later when Europeans came back into the region, a cultural system that had existed continuously for 500-700 years before De Soto was completely gone and seemed to have been gone for some time before then. 

My hunch is that a series of epidemics like on the Columbian level would probably be visible in the fossil record or other anthropological evidence because the decline of trade systems and urban societies would have been extremely sudden. In most other pre-Columbian trade and cultural complexes you can kind of see a pattern of decline and then ancestors of that tradition, whereas many Columbian-level obliterations are sudden and devastating to whatever existed before. If there was a viral conflagration in the 12th or 13th centuries, it certainly didn't seem to have that effect on any North American cultural and trade networks I'm aware of, for as far as we know they kept running relatively similarly (some with slight decline) until European contact. We'd probably notice a severe cutoff.

That does make me wonder about the viral implications of the Norse contact in North America though. Its very possible that anthropologists could miss smaller epidemics that devastated relatively isolated local cultural systems long before Columbian contact. So in short, a small contact under the right conditions could cause a devastating viral outbreak, we have no evidence that such an outbreak occurred in North America in the several hundred years preceding Columbus, but if one did, Native Americans in larger systems of trade got lucky and it either didn't reach them or it didn't affect them like the Columbian one did.

On 12/1/2016 at 12:26 PM, WyomingCoog said:

I own a vehicle likely worth more than everything you own combined and just flew first class (including a ticket for a 2 1/2 year old), round trip to Las Vegas and I'm not 35 yet. When you accomplish something outside of finishing a book, let me know. When's the last time you saw a 2 year old fly first class in their own seat? Don't tell me about elite.  

28 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

I’d happily compare IQ’s with you any day of the week.

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On 4/28/2017 at 6:10 AM, youngrebelfan40 said:

Well, I'm not an epidemiologist or an expert on disease transmission but from my knowledge of historical examples even short contacts with Europeans, especially Europeans with livestock or European children (classic disease carriers) could set off an epidemic in a virgin population. It would also depend on how isolated the tribe that contacted them was. A classic example is the De Soto expedition, which consisted of several hundred Europeans and wandered around aimlessly looking for gold for a few years murdering Indians and spreading diseases across the American southeast in the 1540s. It ended up putting the nail in the coffin on vast complex Mississippian mound-building societies that really had no other direct contacts with Europeans through a series of epidemic outbreaks that occurred shortly after, A hundred years later when Europeans came back into the region, a cultural system that had existed continuously for 500-700 years before De Soto was completely gone and seemed to have been gone for some time before then. 

My hunch is that a series of epidemics like on the Columbian level would probably be visible in the fossil record or other anthropological evidence because the decline of trade systems and urban societies would have been extremely sudden. In most other pre-Columbian trade and cultural complexes you can kind of see a pattern of decline and then ancestors of that tradition, whereas many Columbian-level obliterations are sudden and devastating to whatever existed before. If there was a viral conflagration in the 12th or 13th centuries, it certainly didn't seem to have that effect on any North American cultural and trade networks I'm aware of, for as far as we know they kept running relatively similarly (some with slight decline) until European contact. We'd probably notice a severe cutoff.

That does make me wonder about the viral implications of the Norse contact in North America though. Its very possible that anthropologists could miss smaller epidemics that devastated relatively isolated local cultural systems long before Columbian contact. So in short, a small contact under the right conditions could cause a devastating viral outbreak, we have no evidence that such an outbreak occurred in North America in the several hundred years preceding Columbus, but if one did, Native Americans in larger systems of trade got lucky and it either didn't reach them or it didn't affect them like the Columbian one did.

Good stuff... I would be curious about known demographics in the Oak Island area, if there are any. Is it possible that whomever from Europe traveled there first didn't encounter any First Nations? Is it that remote? No idea...

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2 hours ago, SFtoVA said:

Good stuff... I would be curious about known demographics in the Oak Island area, if there are any. Is it possible that whomever from Europe traveled there first didn't encounter any First Nations? Is it that remote? No idea...

Oak Island resides in Malone Bay just off the coast of Nova Scotia, about 40 miles from Halifax, so it isn't remote at all. Halifax was established in 1749, but there were already settlements along the coast. Permanent settlements and towns near to Oak Island sprung up in the mid-18th century as well, but Nova Scotia had been frequented by fishermen since the early 16th century. You can see Oak Island and Mahone Bay on the left.

01_02_02_HalifaxMahone.jpg

The Mi'kmaq people inhabited the region and traded with European fishermen from the outset. But if you're into taking leaps into psuedohistory, there is this curious coincidence concerning the Mi'kmaq. The flag of their Grand Council bears strange resemblance to symbols used by the Knights Templar.

mikmak-templar-battle-flag.jpg

But I'm getting ahead of myself.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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21 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

Oak Island resides in Malone Bay just off the coast of Nova Scotia, about 40 miles from Halifax, so it isn't remote at all. Halifax was established in 1749, but there were already settlements along the coast. Permanent settlements and towns near to Oak Island sprung up in the mid-18th century as well, but Nova Scotia had been frequented by fishermen since the early 16th century. You can see Oak Island and Mahone Bay on the left.

01_02_02_HalifaxMahone.jpg

The Mi'kmaq people inhabited the region and traded with European fishermen from the outset. But if you're into taking leaps into psuedohistory, there is this curious coincidence concerning the Mi'kmaq. The flag of their Grand Council bears strange resemblance to symbols used by the Knights Templar.

mikmak-templar-battle-flag.jpg

But I'm getting ahead of myself.

No, the Mi'kmaq adopted the cross under Jesuit influence in the early 1600s. It's described by a French chronicler I forget who now 

On 12/1/2016 at 12:26 PM, WyomingCoog said:

I own a vehicle likely worth more than everything you own combined and just flew first class (including a ticket for a 2 1/2 year old), round trip to Las Vegas and I'm not 35 yet. When you accomplish something outside of finishing a book, let me know. When's the last time you saw a 2 year old fly first class in their own seat? Don't tell me about elite.  

28 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

I’d happily compare IQ’s with you any day of the week.

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28 minutes ago, youngrebelfan40 said:

No, the Mi'kmaq adopted the cross under Jesuit influence in the early 1600s. It's described by a French chronicler I forget who now 

That's the historical record. I was speaking of the psuedohistorical record.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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On 4/27/2017 at 11:45 PM, youngrebelfan40 said:

Any "Roman" artifacts were brought after Viking, and most likely Colombian, contacts. These kinds of artifacts pop up from time to time and they are almost invariably found to be either hoaxes or removed from context (like hey, we found these roman coins... with a bunch of 17th century English stuff). Interestingly, there are no disease or even really contact with a distant people stories pre-1492 I'm aware of. 

There remains a lack of evidence for any meaningful contact pre 900s, if you can even call that meaningful. Personally, I find it likely that English fisherman had contacts with Native peoples from the 1470s and it's even possible one or two Japanese fishermen might have been swept up on the Western seaboard in the 15th century, but other than that and the short-lived Norse encounter there's not even remotely sufficient evidence for anyone else, despite the abundant (and at times quixotic) theories that abound. 

And even if say, the Romans or Phoenicians managed to contact Paleo-Indians, there's no clear indication that such a contact created any meaningful ripples or effects on indegenous culture. Although it would be kind of interesting, it wouldn't really matter in the grand scheme of things if nothing came of it within the American historical and anthropological fields. Although I'm sure the antiquities peoples' minds would be blown that any people in the Ancient Mediterranean could travel that far. Hell, from what I've read of Pytheas the very limits of their world were the British Isles and Scandinavia, and it's a wonder they even made it there. 

 

On 4/28/2017 at 0:22 AM, youngrebelfan40 said:

Yes, disease spread far in advance of actual contact with Europeans due to extensive trade networks within the North American mainland. This caused massive demographic upheavals that destroyed entire ways of life (e.g. Mississippian kingdoms) and produced new economic , political, and social formations before Europeans even encountered them. 

 

On 4/28/2017 at 4:10 AM, youngrebelfan40 said:

Well, I'm not an epidemiologist or an expert on disease transmission but from my knowledge of historical examples even short contacts with Europeans, especially Europeans with livestock or European children (classic disease carriers) could set off an epidemic in a virgin population. It would also depend on how isolated the tribe that contacted them was. A classic example is the De Soto expedition, which consisted of several hundred Europeans and wandered around aimlessly looking for gold for a few years murdering Indians and spreading diseases across the American southeast in the 1540s. It ended up putting the nail in the coffin on vast complex Mississippian mound-building societies that really had no other direct contacts with Europeans through a series of epidemic outbreaks that occurred shortly after, A hundred years later when Europeans came back into the region, a cultural system that had existed continuously for 500-700 years before De Soto was completely gone and seemed to have been gone for some time before then. 

My hunch is that a series of epidemics like on the Columbian level would probably be visible in the fossil record or other anthropological evidence because the decline of trade systems and urban societies would have been extremely sudden. In most other pre-Columbian trade and cultural complexes you can kind of see a pattern of decline and then ancestors of that tradition, whereas many Columbian-level obliterations are sudden and devastating to whatever existed before. If there was a viral conflagration in the 12th or 13th centuries, it certainly didn't seem to have that effect on any North American cultural and trade networks I'm aware of, for as far as we know they kept running relatively similarly (some with slight decline) until European contact. We'd probably notice a severe cutoff.

That does make me wonder about the viral implications of the Norse contact in North America though. Its very possible that anthropologists could miss smaller epidemics that devastated relatively isolated local cultural systems long before Columbian contact. So in short, a small contact under the right conditions could cause a devastating viral outbreak, we have no evidence that such an outbreak occurred in North America in the several hundred years preceding Columbus, but if one did, Native Americans in larger systems of trade got lucky and it either didn't reach them or it didn't affect them like the Columbian one did.

A few things to remember about diseases before about 800 AD.

The first is that Europe itself was subject to plagues about as bad as ones that struck Mesoamerica at least from about 550 AD on through about 1500 AD. The Justinian Plague wiped out tens of millions of people; over 10% of the world's population. The Plague of Cyprian and the Antonine Plague ravaged Rome and were thought to be smallpox and measels. Before those was the Plague of Athens, people are guessing it was typhus. It almost certainly struck more areas, but records from the 400s BC are sparse (and urbanization was far less of a factor so it may have been more difficult to spread). Many of these plagues originated from China/Mongolia or at least southeast Asia, passed through the Silk Road and/or India on their way through Persia/Iran and on to Europe. 

We had our virgin field epidemics much as did the natives here. The difference was that we had them spread out over at least several thousand years, any invaders had them at the same time so the societal disruption was less, and we were already more densely populated so resistance was marginally higher.

That also means that any contact with, say, Phoenicians hypothetically and polynesians for sure would almost certainly mean no disease transfer or at least far less than we saw after Columbus. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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