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Jwherb

First Senate Plan to Replace ACA - the 2017 Patient Freedom Act!

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15 minutes ago, RoscoesDad said:

I don't understand. If it's silly and useless, why do doctors still take this oath then? 

Tradition. Convention.  Same reason we still "swear" on a Bible or sing a national anthem. 

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The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears; it was their final, most essential command.

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, WyomingCoog said:

Oh you're using sarcasm...I get it....Your point is that the filet is much cheaper, so it's a bad comparison. You're right. 

No one disputes that healthcare is expensive. How come Germany can pay for healthcare for everyone via taxes and we can't though? It makes no sense. 

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45 minutes ago, RoscoesDad said:

Can someone point out the passage in the Hippocratic Oath that medicine and healthcare is a for profit venture and treatment of people in need of care is based on whether or not the person in need of medical care can afford to pay for the treatment?  Been looking for this, can't seem to find it. 

You want the best and brightest handling your healthcare, to attract talent it needs to pay well.  Don't be purposefully dense.

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7 minutes ago, SJSUMFA2013 said:

No one disputes that healthcare is expensive. How come Germany can pay for healthcare for everyone via taxes and we can't though? It makes no sense. 

I'm still waiting around for you to show me in the constitution where it says free healthcare is a right.....

CSU AD Jack Graham - “If you get outside our borders, no one knows who we are. I was in Phoenix (last week) for the Mountain West meetings and there was a reception with all of the athletic directors. The bartender said to me, ‘Colorado State, where are you guys, Boulder?’ I’ve gotten that all my career. No one knows us outside our own boundaries."

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38 minutes ago, RoscoesDad said:

Can someone point out the passage in the Hippocratic Oath that medicine and healthcare is a for profit venture and treatment of people in need of care is based on whether or not the person in need of medical care can afford to pay for the treatment?  Been looking for this, can't seem to find it. 

Why bring ancient Greeks into the equation? Writings from Aristophanes and Herodotos mention the enormous renumeration that physicians received with temples often being taxed to pay physicians. Not a good analogy. After 11-15 years of training and accumulation of 200k plus of debt, physicians shouldn't consider payment for their services? I guarantee you I've provided more free care through the emergency room and written off more debts than the average worker makes in a year, actually twice as much per year. I take Medicare and Tricare when they pay less than Medicaid for many services. Please leave the Hippocratic oath out of your arguments.

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1 hour ago, NVGiant said:

France or Germany, most likely. Both systems are hybrid models where the government acts as an insurer, but most health care providers remain private. That differs from the UK or Canada, where the government runs the entire system.

Less than 50% of docs are left in private practice and the vast majority of new docs are being employed. The ACA really is a disincentive for private practice, mainly due to regulatory compliance. We won't have an option of private practice soon.

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Just now, NMpackalum said:

Less than 50% of docs are left in private practice and the vast majority of new docs are being employed. The ACA really is a disincentive for private practice, mainly due to regulatory compliance. We won't have an option of private practice soon.

OK. ... That may be. But I was just answering your question.

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35 minutes ago, SJSUMFA2013 said:

No one disputes that healthcare is expensive. How come Germany can pay for healthcare for everyone via taxes and we can't though? It makes no sense. 

Germany has a system that obligates you to pay 8 percent of your income to the system"sickness funds". If you have a salary above $72k euros then you can opt out and purchase private insurance where you can get a private room and more amenities. Also, the social insurance funds pay for malpractice awards which rarely exceed 500k euro for pain and suffering therefore eliminating defensive medicine to a large degree and the tort industry in medicine. I actually would be happy to be in such a system. Generally well thought of by both patients and doctors. Won't happen here, too many lawyers in congress.

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38 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

You want the best and brightest handling your healthcare, to attract talent it needs to pay well.  Don't be purposefully dense.

I know Roscoe invoked the Hippo oath which references the doctor, but I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that he really didn't mean doctors should bear the financial burden in the health care.

Doctors should be compensated fairly and quite well, but we should also find a way for everyone to have health care, regardless of the patient's ability to pay. I don't necessarily think it's a "right", but it seems like the right thing to do if possible and and believe it is possible.

A little OT but how do you feel about teachers salaries?  Imagine the potential of our society if many of our best and brightest were attracted to teaching. It could be a new renaissance.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, toonkee said:

I know Roscoe invoked the Hippo oath which references the doctor, but I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that he really didn't mean doctors should bear the financial burden in the health care.

Doctors should be compensated fairly and quite well, but we should also find a way for everyone to have health care, regardless of the patient's ability to pay. I don't necessarily think it's a "right", but it seems like the right thing to do if possible and and believe it is possible.

A little OT but how do you feel about teachers salaries?  Imagine the potential of our society if many of our best and brightest were attracted to teaching. It could be a new renaissance.

 

 

I think it is abhorrent that in some school districts teachers make so little.  However the low teacher salary thing is somewhat of a myth, the average public school teacher makes 56k a year with lots of vacation time.  Not a bad gig.  You can not really attract "the best and brightest" universally to teaching, as the public school system employes over 3 million full time teachers.  Going to be a lot of duds in a pool that big.

 http://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/?toURL=http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2014/08/07/low-teacher-pay-and-high-teacher-pay-are-both-myths/&refURL=https://www.google.com/&referrer=https://www.google.com/

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=372

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7 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

I think it is abhorrent that in some school districts teachers make so little.  However the low teacher salary thing is somewhat of a myth, the average public school teacher makes 56k a year with lots of vacation time.  Not a bad gig.  You can not really attract "the best and brightest" universally to teaching, as the public school system employes over 3 million full time teachers.  Going to be a lot of duds in a pool that big.

 http://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/?toURL=http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2014/08/07/low-teacher-pay-and-high-teacher-pay-are-both-myths/&refURL=https://www.google.com/&referrer=https://www.google.com/

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=372

Of course all teachers wouldn't universally be the best and brightest, but maybe the profession could be more competitive with other "best and brightest" fields.

Not all doctors are "the best".

And to your point about not being able to pay them, I say where there's a will, there's a way.  We just have no will.

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8 minutes ago, toonkee said:

Of course all teachers wouldn't universally be the best and brightest, but maybe the profession could be more competitive with other "best and brightest" fields.

Not all doctors are "the best".

And to your point about not being able to pay them, I say where there's a will, there's a way.  We just have no will.

Ideally we could bring salaries in low socioeconomic areas up closer to the mean of the state.  I think that would solve some problems dealing with systemic oppression.  Needs to be done at the state and county level though with maybe a federal outline of sorts.  There are some parts of the country where public school teachers make 90k-100k a year with alllllll that time off.  That is a sweet gig.  In others it is as low as 32k a year, which very depressing and is not going to attract a lot of people worth a damn.

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2 hours ago, NMpackalum said:

Germany has a system that obligates you to pay 8 percent of your income to the system"sickness funds". If you have a salary above $72k euros then you can opt out and purchase private insurance where you can get a private room and more amenities. Also, the social insurance funds pay for malpractice awards which rarely exceed 500k euro for pain and suffering therefore eliminating defensive medicine to a large degree and the tort industry in medicine. I actually would be happy to be in such a system. Generally well thought of by both patients and doctors. Won't happen here, too many lawyers in congress.

Have you ever had to use your malpractice insurance?  Or put another way, have you ever been sued professionally?

 

The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears; it was their final, most essential command.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

I think it is abhorrent that in some school districts teachers make so little.  However the low teacher salary thing is somewhat of a myth, the average public school teacher makes 56k a year with lots of vacation time.  Not a bad gig.  You can not really attract "the best and brightest" universally to teaching, as the public school system employes over 3 million full time teachers.  Going to be a lot of duds in a pool that big.

Idaho's average teaching salary is $43k.  Yikes.

And alllll that time off.  Every teacher I know would disagree.  

The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears; it was their final, most essential command.

 

 

 

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Guest RoscoesDad
3 hours ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

You want the best and brightest handling your healthcare, to attract talent it needs to pay well.  Don't be purposefully dense.

I'm not being purposefully dense.  I am asking why doctors take an oath to serve mankind?  Can you explain why Doctors Without Borders exists?  I'll go out on a limb and say that it's because of the purpose behind the Hippocratic Oath.  

Regardless.  Answer me this question.  Are doctors here to make a profit or to treat their fellow humans?

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56 minutes ago, Jwherb said:

Idaho's average teaching salary is $43k.  Yikes.

And alllll that time off.  Every teacher I know would disagree.  

They work 80 less days then the average private sector job, with only an average of 5 days a year in professional development.  56k a year on average while working 80 less days is not terrible.  Teachers make about $1.50 for every $1.00 the would make on average in the private sector with the same education and skill set.  http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970203687504576655352353046120

Teachers like to whine.  JK.  Ideally no state or district would have an average salary under 60k a year.  Not sure how we get there though.

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Guest RoscoesDad
2 hours ago, toonkee said:

I know Roscoe invoked the Hippo oath which references the doctor, but I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that he really didn't mean doctors should bear the financial burden in the health care.

Doctors should be compensated fairly and quite well, but we should also find a way for everyone to have health care, regardless of the patient's ability to pay. I don't necessarily think it's a "right", but it seems like the right thing to do if possible and and believe it is possible.

A little OT but how do you feel about teachers salaries?  Imagine the potential of our society if many of our best and brightest were attracted to teaching. It could be a new renaissance.

 

 

Pretty much it.  The whole argument, at the end of the day, is that healthcare was never meant to be a for profit venture.  Doctors took that oath to be servants of society and mankind, not to be rich or make a profit. Has anyone ever bothered to actually read it?

Now I know this is totally altruistic and I understand that altruism is a liberal disease.  But the point remains the same.  Call me all the names you guys want to (as typical of the myopes on this forum), but I want every human being to receive the health care they need, regardless of ability to pay or afford. That even means Republicans, Trumptards and Teabaggers and perhaps even Tools. 

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Just now, RoscoesDad said:

Pretty much it.  The whole argument, at the end of the day, is that healthcare was never meant to be a for profit venture.  Doctors took that oath to be servants of society and mankind, not to be rich or make a profit. Has anyone ever bothered to actually read it?

Now I know this is totally altruistic and I understand that altruism is a liberal disease.  But the point remains the same.  Call me all the names you guys want to (as typical of the myopes on this forum), but I want every human being to receive the health care they need, regardless of ability to pay or afford. That even means Republicans, Trumptards and Teabaggers and perhaps even Tools. 

And I wan't to receive GOOD care.  Pay doctors 40k a year and NOBODY will get the health care they need.

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