MWC 6 vs Pac 8

[EvilPoke]

With the talk of the Pac-2 wanting to grab 6 schools (typically rumored to be CSU, Boise, SDSU, Fresno, Air Force and UNLV) - I wondered who would be in a better spot moving forward -

Wazzu, OSU and the 6 listed above MINUS $300 million (roughly $50m per school)

Or

Hawaii, San Jose, Nevada, Utah State, Wyoming and New Mexico + $300 million

(I don't think this will happen - but people keep bringing this as an option, so...)

I could see how being in the best of the best G5 is great, but having the giant treasure trove when no one can predict how the G5/P4 (or 2) split will leave the college landscape has its benefits, too.

[HawaiiMongoose]

Not sure where you got the $300 million figure.  I think the maximum wealth transfer would be around $170 million, assuming the MWC's exit fee holds up in court.  That's comprised of $102 million in combined exit fee payments by the six departing schools ($17 million per school) and the $67.5 million poaching penalty due from the Pac (as specified in the sliding scale contained in the MWC-Pac scheduling agreement).

As for your question, I think the departing schools would be better off in the long run, but the $170 million would at least cushion the blow for the left-behinds.  It would enable them to pay some incentive money to whatever schools they target to rebuild the MWC, e.g. grants to cover short-term transition costs for any FCS move-ups.  They could split the remainder among themselves to invest in athletic program improvements.

[Nevada Convert]

On 7/28/2024 at 6:28 PM, EvilPoke said:

With the talk of the Pac-2 wanting to grab 6 schools (typically rumored to be CSU, Boise, SDSU, Fresno, Air Force and UNLV) - I wondered who would be in a better spot moving forward -

Wazzu, OSU and the 6 listed above MINUS $300 million (roughly $50m per school)

Or

Hawaii, San Jose, Nevada, Utah State, Wyoming and New Mexico + $300 million

(I don't think this will happen - but people keep bringing this as an option, so...)

I could see how being in the best of the best G5 is great, but having the giant treasure trove when no one can predict how the G5/P4 (or 2) split will leave the college landscape has its benefits, too.

It would be a lose/lose because they all need each other. 

When we do the reverse merger, Gloria needs to do huge exit fees and require 11 schools to disband the conference. That way if CAL and Stanford get kicked loose, they either join the PAC, go Indy or drop football. SMU might want to join. 

[Someone Else]

Why do they all 'need' each other?  

Why does Wyo need SDSU?

Why does Fresno need UNM?

etc

 

[dudleyDgroot]

On 7/29/2024 at 7:26 AM, Someone Else said:

Why do they all 'need' each other?  

Why does Wyo need SDSU?

Why does Fresno need UNM?

etc

 

What's so doggone great about OSU and WSU?  Two mediocre programs  in two ridiculously small markets......just wait til their budgets are decimated by lack of the media money they   receive....they were sucking off PAC 12 teats for decades.....

[Brew_Poke]

On 7/29/2024 at 8:35 AM, dudleyDgroot said:

What's so doggone great about OSU and WSU?  Two mediocre programs  in two ridiculously small markets......just wait til their budgets are decimated by lack of the media money they   receive....they were sucking off PAC 12 teats for decades.....

Without USC, Washington, and Oregon to supply them with TV dollars, they're the same as a MW school.  That's not even up for debate.

[Someone Else]

3 hours ago, dudleyDgroot said:

What's so doggone great about OSU and WSU?  Two mediocre programs  in two ridiculously small markets......just wait til their budgets are decimated by lack of the media money they   receive....they were sucking off PAC 12 teats for decades.....

Not sure why you quoted me.  My question has nothing to do with what you wrote or your question.

My question was why do all the MWC schools 'need' each other? 

You can say they don't need OSU or WSU either but that doesn't address my question.  

[Chalsean]

On 7/29/2024 at 11:52 AM, Someone Else said:

Not sure why you quoted me.  My question has nothing to do with what you wrote or your question.

My question was why do all the MWC schools 'need' each other? 

You can say they don't need OSU or WSU either but that doesn't address my question.  

Frankly not sure what you're driving at or where got "need" from in this thread.  It's kind of a silly poll imo because its a situation that will not happen.  MWC is staying put.  One or both of OSU/WSU may join.  That's about the gist of the situation.

[Someone Else]

2 hours ago, Chalsean said:

Frankly not sure what you're driving at or where got "need" from in this thread.  It's kind of a silly poll imo because its a situation that will not happen.  MWC is staying put.  One or both of OSU/WSU may join.  That's about the gist of the situation.

The post above my first post said the MWC schools all need each other.  I simply asked why.  That is what I am driving at.

On another note, given the new rules due to the latest court case against the NCAA, I am not sure anyone can predict what may or may not happen.  That ruling is going to change how a lot of athletic departments operate and I'm not sure all schools within any conference are going to have the same take. jmo

[Beaver-Poke]

On 7/29/2024 at 7:35 AM, dudleyDgroot said:

What's so doggone great about OSU and WSU?  Two mediocre programs  in two ridiculously small markets......just wait til their budgets are decimated by lack of the media money they   receive....they were sucking off PAC 12 teats for decades.....

Pretty ironic for a fan of SJSU to criticize programs for living off the rest of the conference for decades.

Especially when OSU and WSU have combined to play in 24 (WSU 11, OSU 13) bowl games and earn numerous NCAA men's basketball units in this century. To say nothing of Oregon State's three NCAA baseball championships. They have more than held up their share of the burden. 

PS: Portland Seattle, which OSU and WSU have thousands and thousands of fans/TV viewers/alums in, are not "ridiculously small" TV markets. 

[dudleyDgroot]

On 7/29/2024 at 7:49 PM, Beaver-Poke said:

Pretty ironic for a fan of SJSU to criticize programs for living off the rest of the conference for decades.

Especially when OSU and WSU have combined to play in 24 (WSU 11, OSU 13) bowl games and earn numerous NCAA men's basketball units in this century. To say nothing of Oregon State's three NCAA baseball championships. They have more than held up their share of the burden. 

PS: Portland Seattle, which OSU and WSU have thousands and thousands of fans/TV viewers/alums in, are not "ridiculously small" TV markets. 

So....why are they homeless?

[Aztecjeff]

I think Oregon State & Washington State invite the "Top 9" schools from the MWC + UTSA for a 12 team league.  That way "they" (nor anyone else) has to pay any penalties. 

Question is, which 3 MWC schools will be left behind?  And where would they ultimately end up?  

My guess:

Hawaii (goes Independent)

Utah State (C-USA)

Nevada (C-USA)   

[HawaiiMongoose]

It is very unlikely that Hawaii would ever go independent.  Scheduling home games after September would be extremely difficult, for reasons I’ve explained in other threads/posts numerous times.

If the MWC were dissolved and we were iced out of a rebuilt Pac, we would look for a new FBS conference home.  If that failed we would look for an FCS conference hime or drop football.

[smithy]

On 7/30/2024 at 1:18 AM, Aztecjeff said:

I think Oregon State & Washington State invite the "Top 9" schools from the MWC + UTSA for a 12 team league.  That way "they" (nor anyone else) has to pay any penalties. 

Question is, which 3 MWC schools will be left behind?  And where would they ultimately end up?  

My guess:

Hawaii (goes Independent)

Utah State (C-USA)

Nevada (C-USA)   

My guess is that the PAC will fully reverse merge with the existing MW and add two more, be it UTSA, UTEP, to get to 16 for FB . They need the body count to compete with the other P4 teams and at the same time control the pacific and mountain time slots and also have a foot in the door into west/south Texas. This keeps all the money in everybody coffers, each school can then improve their facilities, take schools from the AAC and CUSA, and have no penalty fees to be doled out. If they can also have a full schedule agreement the whole WCC for many non conference BB games throughout the league, it can compete in basketball SOS against the Big12. Having those agreements might help Gloria in getting the maximum income for all the schools involved including the WCC. My 2c.

[Chalsean]

On 7/30/2024 at 1:53 PM, smithy said:

My guess is that the PAC will fully reverse merge with the existing MW and add two more, be it UTSA, UTEP, to get to 16 for FB . They need the body count to compete with the other P4 teams and at the same time control the pacific and mountain time slots and also have a foot in the door into west/south Texas. This keeps all the money in everybody coffers, each school can then improve their facilities, take schools from the AAC and CUSA, and have no penalty fees to be doled out. If they can also have a full schedule agreement the whole WCC for many non conference BB games throughout the league, it can compete in basketball SOS against the Big12. Having those agreements might help Gloria in getting the maximum income for all the schools involved including the WCC. My 2c.

Just curious, but what does a reverse merge buy us (MWC)?  PAC brand would have to be repaired (advertising $$) and theres lots of radioactive legal cases pending.  So thats a bunch of risk and cost just to say were PAC instead of MWC?

[Wyobraska]

On 7/30/2024 at 1:53 PM, smithy said:

My guess is that the PAC will fully reverse merge with the existing MW and add two more, be it UTSA, UTEP, to get to 16 for FB . They need the body count to compete with the other P4 teams and at the same time control the pacific and mountain time slots and also have a foot in the door into west/south Texas. This keeps all the money in everybody coffers, each school can then improve their facilities, take schools from the AAC and CUSA, and have no penalty fees to be doled out. If they can also have a full schedule agreement the whole WCC for many non conference BB games throughout the league, it can compete in basketball SOS against the Big12. Having those agreements might help Gloria in getting the maximum income for all the schools involved including the WCC. My 2c.

Why would you need a body count to compete with the P4?  The MW is not in competition with the P4.  

[MissionTrails]

On 7/30/2024 at 1:08 PM, Chalsean said:

Just curious, but what does a reverse merge buy us (MWC)?  PAC brand would have to be repaired (advertising $$) and theres lots of radioactive legal cases pending.  So thats a bunch of risk and cost just to say were PAC instead of MWC?

Probably doesn't buy us much, though the Pac name still carries more name recognition nationally. Thing is, the Pac2 schools will lose their treasure chest if they can't get us to merge their way (keeping Pac name instead of MWC), so there's got to be some financial incentive offered to the MWC schools to get us to play ball with them. That's the way I see it anyway. Maybe there's something I'm missing.

[Hoser]

So still not clear on this, do OSU and WSU lose their PAC 12 money if they join the MWC?  If that is the case I can see why they would not join the MWC.  But for 6 MWC schools to join them and create another conference makes no sense IMO.  

 

I just don't see any schools in the MWC caving unless there is a huge incentive for them to do so.

[Chalsean]

On 7/30/2024 at 5:15 PM, Hoser said:

So still not clear on this, do OSU and WSU lose their PAC 12 money if they join the MWC?  If that is the case I can see why they would not join the MWC.  But for 6 MWC schools to join them and create another conference makes no sense IMO.  

 

I just don't see any schools in the MWC caving unless there is a huge incentive for them to do so.

I suspect the money is getting paid out over time.  Thus if they are not in the legal entity (PAC), then they dont get the future money.  Additionally the PAC needs to be recognized by NCAA as a conference (have at least 8 members) in order for tourney credits to be paid out.  If it is not, then I think the NCAA pays out the money equally to the former PAC members that were in the conference at the time.  Which obviously is a lower payout to OSU/WSU specifically.  Legally speaking the PAC is a hot mess and the risk/reward for MWC schools simply isn't there unless OSU/WSU want to start sharing.  I dont think a "reverse merger" is in the cards due to PAC legal issues (2 schools is not a merger).  It's much cleaner for MWC to simply expand and the PAC legal entity to dissolve.

[EvilPoke]

On 7/30/2024 at 8:15 PM, Chalsean said:

I suspect the money is getting paid out over time.  Thus if they are not in the legal entity (PAC), then they dont get the future money.  Additionally the PAC needs to be recognized by NCAA as a conference (have at least 8 members) in order for tourney credits to be paid out.  If it is not, then I think the NCAA pays out the money equally to the former PAC members that were in the conference at the time.  Which obviously is a lower payout to OSU/WSU specifically.  Legally speaking the PAC is a hot mess and the risk/reward for MWC schools simply isn't there unless OSU/WSU want to start sharing.  I dont think a "reverse merger" is in the cards due to PAC legal issues (2 schools is not a merger).  It's much cleaner for MWC to simply expand and the PAC legal entity to dissolve.

Could you imagine the Pac-2 losing out on 10s of millions of dollars because they couldn't convince at least 6 schools to join them?