Nevada Convert Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 Maybe he can learn something from it. A Catholic HS in North Carolina fired a longtime gay teacher for getting married. The teacher sued and won. On appeal, the Catholic HS just won with an appeals panel consisting of an Obama, Clinton and Bush judge. The Catholic HS was very tolerant knowing that he was living with his long time parter despite being in conflict with the Catholic doctrine they teach at the school. But when he pushed it to announcing that he was going to marry him, they felt it crossed the line with their teachings and dismissed him. Here is a summary: “We conclude that the school entrusted Billard with ‘vital religious duties,’ making him a ‘messenger’ of its faith and placing him within the ministerial exception,” the ruling, written by Judge Pamela Harris, states. Title VII prohibits employment discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex and national origin, and in the 2020 landmark Supreme Court case Bostock v. Clayton County, Georgia, the high court ruled that workplace sex discrimination includes discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity. However, the Supreme Court has upheld that nondiscrimination laws are subject to a carve out, known as a “ministerial exception,” which permits religious organizations from being subjected to government interference in the hiring and firing of people in religious roles. “The Supreme Court has been crystal clear on this issue: Catholic schools have the freedom to choose teachers who fully support Catholic teaching,” Luke Goodrich, Becket’s vice president and senior counsel, said in a statement. “This is a victory for people of all faiths who cherish the freedom to pass on their faith to the next generation.” https://www.yahoo.com/news/north-carolina-catholic-school-didn-225108883.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaztecs Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 On 5/9/2024 at 9:45 PM, Nevada Convert said: Maybe he can learn something from it. A Catholic HS in North Carolina fired a longtime gay teacher for getting married. The teacher sued and won. On appeal, the Catholic HS just won with an appeals panel consisting of an Obama, Clinton and Bush judge. The Catholic HS was very tolerant knowing that he was living with his long time parter despite being in conflict with the Catholic doctrine they teach at the school. But when he pushed it to announcing that he was going to marry him, they felt it crossed the line with their teachings and dismissed him. Here is a summary: “We conclude that the school entrusted Billard with ‘vital religious duties,’ making him a ‘messenger’ of its faith and placing him within the ministerial exception,” the ruling, written by Judge Pamela Harris, states. Title VII prohibits employment discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex and national origin, and in the 2020 landmark Supreme Court case Bostock v. Clayton County, Georgia, the high court ruled that workplace sex discrimination includes discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity. However, the Supreme Court has upheld that nondiscrimination laws are subject to a carve out, known as a “ministerial exception,” which permits religious organizations from being subjected to government interference in the hiring and firing of people in religious roles. “The Supreme Court has been crystal clear on this issue: Catholic schools have the freedom to choose teachers who fully support Catholic teaching,” Luke Goodrich, Becket’s vice president and senior counsel, said in a statement. “This is a victory for people of all faiths who cherish the freedom to pass on their faith to the next generation.” https://www.yahoo.com/news/north-carolina-catholic-school-didn-225108883.html A very pyrrhic victory here Conny. The very idea that people can say my religion prohibits me from being inclusive and accepting of others is disingenuous at best. Just be honest and tell us know you're a phucking homophobe. 1 Quote "We don't have evidence but, we have lot's of theories." Americans Mayor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevada Convert Posted May 10 Author Share Posted May 10 On 5/9/2024 at 10:43 PM, Spaztecs said: A very pyrrhic victory here Conny. The very idea that people can say my religion prohibits me from being inclusive and accepting of others is disingenuous at best. Just be honest and tell us know you're a phucking homophobe. Why don’t you explain to me why you’re a Christianity bigot? That’s what needs to be answered here. So Obama and Clinton lefty judges are homophobes? I didn’t make this ruling, they did. Religious freedom just so happens to be one of the founding principles of this country, you un-American tool. I’ll bet if he went and got a job at a Palestinian HS in Gaza, and he announced he was getting married and they killed him, you’d be understanding about it and then blame it on Israel. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdad Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 If we're talking bigotry, I think the school would fit the bill here. Somewhere along the way, the Catholic Church blew past the “Judge not, or you too will be judged." approach to a heavy on atonement instead of encouraging living a joyous and virtuous life and not worrying about what others are doing. I think the there has been progress made in the past decade with Pope Francis formally approving letting Catholic priests bless same-sex couples back in December 2023. Either way, this all happened in 2014...it's best left there, IMO. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupslam1 Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 On 5/9/2024 at 11:43 PM, Spaztecs said: A very pyrrhic victory here Conny. The very idea that people can say my religion prohibits me from being inclusive and accepting of others is disingenuous at best. Just be honest and tell us know you're a phucking homophobe. Just curious, are you an atheist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaztecs Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 On 5/10/2024 at 11:14 AM, soupslam1 said: Just curious, are you an atheist? In what sense ? Is there an afterlife ? A judgement bar with punishment for the wicked and rewards for the the meek ? Probably not. Is it a good thing to follow and practice the human uplifting parts of religious or spiritual thought ? Absolutely. Is it good to judge and expect everyone to live their lives according to the Old Testament, tradition, and heavy handed religious doctrine. Hell to the No. Do I believe in the Divine, the good in humanity, and our better inclinations ? Hell yeah ! Quote "We don't have evidence but, we have lot's of theories." Americans Mayor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevada Convert Posted May 11 Author Share Posted May 11 On 5/10/2024 at 9:00 AM, Slapdad said: If we're talking bigotry, I think the school would fit the bill here. Somewhere along the way, the Catholic Church blew past the “Judge not, or you too will be judged." approach to a heavy on atonement instead of encouraging living a joyous and virtuous life and not worrying about what others are doing. I think the there has been progress made in the past decade with Pope Francis formally approving letting Catholic priests bless same-sex couples back in December 2023. Either way, this all happened in 2014...it's best left there, IMO. Just curious. Have you ever read the Bible? There are all kinds of verses in the Bible that look down on homosexuality. So it should be no surprise to anyone that the Catholic Church just might tend to follow the Bible. Just one of many. Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. — Leviticus 18:22, King James Version[35] You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. — Leviticus 18:22, Revised Standard Version and English Standard Version[36] You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination. — Leviticus 18:22, New American Bible[37] Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin. — Leviticus 18:22, New Living Translation[38] Of course, there’s a million different ways that activists have rationalized and spun what’s in the Bible, and they can certainly do that if they want to. But to call these Catholic’s bigots for following scripture as written probably makes you a religious bigot if there has to be a bigot, here. Homosexuality is a deviation from the physiological natural norm, and as a society we’ve chosen to be at least, at a minimum, tolerant to those that are gay. I agree with that, and it’s the right call in a modern civilized free society. It might get on your nerves or gross you out to see it, but we all do things that piss some people off, and it’s part of being in a free society. If I see a guy picking his nose and eating it in front of me while I’m waiting in line, I can’t make him stop. I just don’t look, and be tolerant. I think a lot of Christians see these scriptures and have decided that we’re all not perfect, and we all do things the Bible tells us not to do. But you can’t fault some people in the Catholic Church that don’t want to be seen as actually PROMOTING what the Bible tells us NOT to do. If you think that’s bigotry, then you have big issues. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjean87 Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 Anyone violating Levitical laws will burn in hell! Well, except Jesus and the times he went 180°. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevada Convert Posted May 11 Author Share Posted May 11 On 5/11/2024 at 3:36 PM, grandjean87 said: Anyone violating Levitical laws will burn in hell! Well, except Jesus and the times he went 180°. And the spin/rationalizations begin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaztecs Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 On 5/11/2024 at 4:22 PM, Nevada Convert said: Just curious. Have you ever read the Bible? There are all kinds of verses in the Bible that look down on homosexuality. So it should be no surprise to anyone that the Catholic Church just might tend to follow the Bible. Just one of many. Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. — Leviticus 18:22, King James Version[35] You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. — Leviticus 18:22, Revised Standard Version and English Standard Version[36] You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination. — Leviticus 18:22, New American Bible[37] Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin. — Leviticus 18:22, New Living Translation[38] Of course, there’s a million different ways that activists have rationalized and spun what’s in the Bible, and they can certainly do that if they want to. But to call these Catholic’s bigots for following scripture as written probably makes you a religious bigot if there has to be a bigot, here. Homosexuality is a deviation from the physiological natural norm, and as a society we’ve chosen to be at least, at a minimum, tolerant to those that are gay. I agree with that, and it’s the right call in a modern civilized free society. It might get on your nerves or gross you out to see it, but we all do things that piss some people off, and it’s part of being in a free society. If I see a guy picking his nose and eating it in front of me while I’m waiting in line, I can’t make him stop. I just don’t look, and be tolerant. I think a lot of Christians see these scriptures and have decided that we’re all not perfect, and we all do things the Bible tells us not to do. But you can’t fault some people in the Catholic Church that don’t want to be seen as actually PROMOTING what the Bible tells us NOT to do. If you think that’s bigotry, then you have big issues. If your practicing whatever practice or live your life in a way that is different, great. Just don't force your lifestyle choices on others. It's really that simple, but the Lifestyle Nazis don't see it that way. Quote "We don't have evidence but, we have lot's of theories." Americans Mayor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaztecs Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 On 5/11/2024 at 4:53 PM, Nevada Convert said: And the spin/rationalizations begin. Jesus claimed his death invalidated and fulfilled the Law. Old testy. Somehow todays Evangelicals choose to ignore that part and want to live according to a 10,000 year old code which is irrelevant in today's world. He commanded his followers to follow the New Way which is compassion, caring, understanding and love. Not stonings or banishment for perceived poor behaviour. Leviticus should be last week's news to Christians. Not the current state of affairs. Quote "We don't have evidence but, we have lot's of theories." Americans Mayor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sactowndog Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 On 5/10/2024 at 9:00 AM, Slapdad said: If we're talking bigotry, I think the school would fit the bill here. Somewhere along the way, the Catholic Church blew past the “Judge not, or you too will be judged." approach to a heavy on atonement instead of encouraging living a joyous and virtuous life and not worrying about what others are doing. I think the there has been progress made in the past decade with Pope Francis formally approving letting Catholic priests bless same-sex couples back in December 2023. Either way, this all happened in 2014...it's best left there, IMO. Not the post I expected from you Slap. I am pleasantly surprised. and I agree Pope Francis darn near makes me want to be Catholic. Jesus in my opinion is proud of him. I suspect a backlash when he passes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sactowndog Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 On 5/11/2024 at 9:36 PM, Spaztecs said: Jesus claimed his death invalidated and fulfilled the Law. Old testy. Somehow todays Evangelicals choose to ignore that part and want to live according to a 10,000 year old code which is irrelevant in today's world. He commanded his followers to follow the New Way which is compassion, caring, understanding and love. Not stonings or banishment for perceived poor behaviour. Leviticus should be last week's news to Christians. Not the current state of affairs. No they pick and choose. But to be fair Paul was a homophobe too. Some of that may be because gay men were often leaders of pagan religions. Look at this link of ancient Mesopotamia religions. As those religions competed with the Abrahamic religions not really a surprise their leaders were demonized. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Homosexuality_and_religion&wprov=rarw1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdad Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 On 5/12/2024 at 12:45 AM, sactowndog said: Not the post I expected from you Slap. I am pleasantly surprised. and I agree Pope Francis darn near makes me want to be Catholic. Jesus in my opinion is proud of him. I suspect a backlash when he passes. I also believe that Jesus would be proud of him, but I don't expect a backlash when he passes. I believe that most Catholics are tolerant want the church's official stance to reflect that. There are, of course, exceptions to that, but there are people who are exceptions in every population. Out of curiosity, why does my post surprise you? I have never said anything to condemn homosexuality, so I'm sure why it would come as a surprise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdad Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 On 5/11/2024 at 5:22 PM, Nevada Convert said: Just curious. Have you ever read the Bible? There are all kinds of verses in the Bible that look down on homosexuality. So it should be no surprise to anyone that the Catholic Church just might tend to follow the Bible. Just one of many. Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. — Leviticus 18:22, King James Version[35] You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. — Leviticus 18:22, Revised Standard Version and English Standard Version[36] You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination. — Leviticus 18:22, New American Bible[37] Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin. — Leviticus 18:22, New Living Translation[38] Of course, there’s a million different ways that activists have rationalized and spun what’s in the Bible, and they can certainly do that if they want to. But to call these Catholic’s bigots for following scripture as written probably makes you a religious bigot if there has to be a bigot, here. Homosexuality is a deviation from the physiological natural norm, and as a society we’ve chosen to be at least, at a minimum, tolerant to those that are gay. I agree with that, and it’s the right call in a modern civilized free society. It might get on your nerves or gross you out to see it, but we all do things that piss some people off, and it’s part of being in a free society. If I see a guy picking his nose and eating it in front of me while I’m waiting in line, I can’t make him stop. I just don’t look, and be tolerant. I think a lot of Christians see these scriptures and have decided that we’re all not perfect, and we all do things the Bible tells us not to do. But you can’t fault some people in the Catholic Church that don’t want to be seen as actually PROMOTING what the Bible tells us NOT to do. If you think that’s bigotry, then you have big issues. I have read the bible....have you? Have you read everything in the book of Leviticus? Leviticus 3:17 “It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood" Leviticus 19:27 “Neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.” Leviticus 19:28 “Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the Lord.” Leviticus 19:19 “Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind.” Leviticus 19:18 “Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people.” Reading your posts here, it's clear that you bear a grudge against more than one here, so I'll see you in hell, buddy. The way Jesus lived his life and his writings are the foundation for Christianity. The writings by other men or collectives of men of this world, while also important, have to be regarded as just that....written by men, interpreted by men, translated and retranslated by men. Men are imperfect and even folks who have virtuous intentions have their own agendas (hidden...even to themselves...or otherwise). Back to the OP, I don't see the school as promoting any lifestyle by allowing a gay couple to marry (especially considering how the church allowed it 9 years later), but rather being tolerant of it. I hope the school takes the same stance on employees who cheat on their spouse, have pre-marital sex, and every other behavior that the church doesn't want to promote, but you know that won't be the case. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevada Convert Posted May 12 Author Share Posted May 12 On 5/11/2024 at 9:36 PM, Spaztecs said: Jesus claimed his death invalidated and fulfilled the Law. Old testy. Somehow todays Evangelicals choose to ignore that part and want to live according to a 10,000 year old code which is irrelevant in today's world. He commanded his followers to follow the New Way which is compassion, caring, understanding and love. Not stonings or banishment for perceived poor behaviour. Leviticus should be last week's news to Christians. Not the current state of affairs. Apparently you’re not familiar with the Bible, either. There are 3 scriptures in the Old Testament and 3 scriptures in the New Testament that directly address homosexuality. Here’s what Paul says in Romans (New Testament): Romans 1:26-27 "God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error." Again, I am sticking up for Catholic’s right to freedom of religion just like I am for Muslims, etc. Just because I’m defending their right doesn’t mean I agree with their interpretation you retard. I know that’s a tough concept, but give it another try. Based on Biblical scripture, it’s reasonable for some Christians to have that interpretation. That’s all I’m saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevada Convert Posted May 12 Author Share Posted May 12 On 5/12/2024 at 1:59 PM, Slapdad said: I have read the bible....have you? Have you read everything in the book of Leviticus? Leviticus 3:17 “It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood" Leviticus 19:27 “Neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.” Leviticus 19:28 “Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the Lord.” Leviticus 19:19 “Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind.” Leviticus 19:18 “Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people.” Reading your posts here, it's clear that you bear a grudge against more than one here, so I'll see you in hell, buddy. The way Jesus lived his life and his writings are the foundation for Christianity. The writings by other men or collectives of men of this world, while also important, have to be regarded as just that....written by men, interpreted by men, translated and retranslated by men. Men are imperfect and even folks who have virtuous intentions have their own agendas (hidden...even to themselves...or otherwise). Back to the OP, I don't see the school as promoting any lifestyle by allowing a gay couple to marry (especially considering how the church allowed it 9 years later), but rather being tolerant of it. I hope the school takes the same stance on employees who cheat on their spouse, have pre-marital sex, and every other behavior that the church doesn't want to promote, but you know that won't be the case. Dude, you’ve turned into a grumpy angry intolerant old dude that’s now a religious bigot just because some Catholics interpret the Bible differently from you. Based on Biblical scripture in the New & Old Testament, it is very reasonable that some Christians will interpret the Bible as that Catholic HS does. Actually the HS has been very tolerant to this man’s situation. They’ve known for many years that he’s gay and has had a live-in gay partner for many years. They felt it was low key enough even with him being in the position representing Catholic beliefs of the school. Unlike you, that is extremely tolerant. But when he announced to everyone in the school and public that he was getting married, he knew he was going to nuke his situation completely. It was a full blown activist move challenging their interpretation of the Bible. I have news for you. The world doesn’t evolve just around gay marriage rights. Other rights matter too. This guy can go teach at any public school he wants. That’s what an Obama and Clinton judge believe, so that should tell you how far left you are on this one. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sactowndog Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 On 5/12/2024 at 1:22 PM, Slapdad said: I also believe that Jesus would be proud of him, but I don't expect a backlash when he passes. I believe that most Catholics are tolerant want the church's official stance to reflect that. There are, of course, exceptions to that, but there are people who are exceptions in every population. Out of curiosity, why does my post surprise you? I have never said anything to condemn homosexuality, so I'm sure why it would come as a surprise. Because from other comments I placed you with my right wing friends who absolutely are anti-LGBTQ. Sort of guilt by association. Clearly I mis-judged you. As for a backlash, Catholicism clearly has a conservative wing represented by US bishops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdad Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 On 5/12/2024 at 4:37 PM, Nevada Convert said: Dude, you’ve turned into a grumpy angry intolerant old dude that’s now a religious bigot just because some Catholics interpret the Bible differently from you. Based on Biblical scripture in the New & Old Testament, it is very reasonable that some Christians will interpret the Bible as that Catholic HS does. Actually the HS has been very tolerant to this man’s situation. They’ve known for many years that he’s gay and has had a live-in gay partner for many years. They felt it was low key enough even with him being in the position representing Catholic beliefs of the school. Unlike you, that is extremely tolerant. But when he announced to everyone in the school and public that he was getting married, he knew he was going to nuke his situation completely. It was a full blown activist move challenging their interpretation of the Bible. I have news for you. The world doesn’t evolve just around gay marriage rights. Other rights matter too. This guy can go teach at any public school he wants. That’s what an Obama and Clinton judge believe, so that should tell you how far left you are on this one. I've become grumpy and intolerant because I don't agree with the school's intolerance? What a ridiculous statement, even for you. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdad Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 On 5/12/2024 at 4:56 PM, sactowndog said: Because from other comments I placed you with my right wing friends who absolutely are anti-LGBTQ. Sort of guilt by association. Clearly I mis-judged you. As for a backlash, Catholicism clearly has a conservative wing represented by US bishops. There are some things that I lean right on, some things that I lean left on and some things that I fall right in the middle on.....and some where my position has changed over time based on life experiences. I am certainly not anti-LGB. The T is a complex issue that, while I'm not opposed to them living their life, I don't agree that my beliefs and life must change to accommodate them. I have Q's on the Q's, but they are free to live their life as long as they don't Q the way I live my life either. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...