sactowndog Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 On 6/8/2024 at 7:37 PM, grandjean87 said: Well, you missed at least one or two contemporary (as in this past year or ongoing) global de-populations/cleansings. You also missed the one from two decades back that was in the article. I'm not interested in tutoring understanding at this point. Anyway, the thesis was the best strategy for Israel would be to turn away from their failed militarism response and work towards the last two strategies. Not sure why you would be against that, but I didn't voice an opinion on the authors' thesis so whatever. Below is their last thesis. This assumes, as do you, that Palestinians will remain in the West Bank and Gaza. If Israel follows the stated goals of more than one national leader they won’t. Israel could care less if the Palestinians support Hamas or not because the Palestinians won’t exist from the River to the Sea. Conversely nobody is trying to depopulate Catholics from Northern Ireland or Francophiles from Quebec. My issue with the article is it obfuscates Israel’s clear intent. An intent if people understood would cause Israel to lose support. Most terrorist groups end in a sixth way: because they fail, either by collapsing in on themselves or by losing support. Groups that implode sometimes die out during generational shifts (the far-left Weather Underground in the United States from the 1960s to the 1980s), disintegrate into factions (remnants of the IRA after the Good Friday Agreement), break down over operational disagreements (the Front de Libération du Québec, a Canadian separatist group, in the early 1970s), or fracture over ideological differences (the communist Japanese Red Army in 2001). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjean87 Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 On 6/9/2024 at 8:10 AM, sactowndog said: Below is their last thesis. This assumes, as do you, that Palestinians will remain in the West Bank and Gaza. If Israel follows the stated goals of more than one national leader they won’t. Israel could care less if the Palestinians support Hamas or not because the Palestinians won’t exist from the River to the Sea. Conversely nobody is trying to depopulate Catholics from Northern Ireland or Francophiles from Quebec. My issue with the article is it obfuscates Israel’s clear intent. An intent if people understood would cause Israel to lose support. You still missed one (or more) from recent history where militarism worked using de-population strategies. Neither Quebec nor N. Ireland were ever subject to large scale, high level military repression so I have no clue why you refer to them other than your confusion. The analysis was, despite some limited historical examples of success, that military repression (militarism) has poor results. The immense costs (esp. for a democracy) exceed the desired results. In other words, the authors are arguing for a change in strategy by Israel that is diametrically opposed to the views of the security minister and others of similar minds. In a way, that means they agree with you in part on the strategy. But, you go very far out by posting as if every last single Palestinian must be killed or driven from all territory in Israel from Gaza to the West Bank ("Palestinians won’t exist from the River to the Sea"). That's rarely if ever been the case in ethnic cleanings. Think about all the peoples who have survived brutal, genocidal campaigns in the 20th and early 21st centuries. You plead over and over goal of Israel is the final solution for the large population of Palestinians not only in Gaza, but also the West Bank and the substantial number in Israel proper. I see no one here, including U.S. policy, defending that wild position. Good luck, man. You have passion, but lack a lot of clarity. I'm moving on (gradually) from this forum. We'll see how it all goes. Not totally leaving for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renoskier Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 On 6/9/2024 at 9:04 AM, grandjean87 said: ...Good luck, man. You have passion, but lack a lot of clarity. I'm moving on (gradually) from this forum. We'll see how it all goes. Not totally leaving for now. you bring a lot to the forum, it's appreciated. hope you'll join us at WCSB you too @sactowndog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sactowndog Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 On 6/9/2024 at 9:04 AM, grandjean87 said: You still missed one (or more) from recent history where militarism worked using de-population strategies. Neither Quebec nor N. Ireland were ever subject to large scale, high level military repression so I have no clue why you refer to them other than your confusion. The analysis was, despite some limited historical examples of success, that military repression (militarism) has poor results. The immense costs (esp. for a democracy) exceed the desired results. In other words, the authors are arguing for a change in strategy by Israel that is diametrically opposed to the views of the security minister and others of similar minds. In a way, that means they agree with you in part on the strategy. But, you go very far out by posting as if every last single Palestinian must be killed or driven from all territory in Israel from Gaza to the West Bank ("Palestinians won’t exist from the River to the Sea"). That's rarely if ever been the case in ethnic cleanings. Think about all the peoples who have survived brutal, genocidal campaigns in the 20th and early 21st centuries. You plead over and over goal of Israel is the final solution for the large population of Palestinians not only in Gaza, but also the West Bank and the substantial number in Israel proper. I see no one here, including U.S. policy, defending that wild position. Good luck, man. You have passion, but lack a lot of clarity. I'm moving on (gradually) from this forum. We'll see how it all goes. Not totally leaving for now. I realize other instances of ethnic cleansing exist. I tried to pick examples most people would know. I’m not stating what I believe Israel should do. I am stating what right wing Israeli’s have said regarding Gaza and done in the West Bank. Quite frankly your brief comments of what has happened to people facing campaigns of ethnic cleansing as a historical study to me is more relevant than the article you posted. And again I did not use the term Genocide as you implied in your “final solution” comment. Israel does not desire to kill all the Palestinians just to force them into Egypt or Jordan. Have you watched Israelism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sactowndog Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 On 6/9/2024 at 11:46 AM, renoskier said: you bring a lot to the forum, it's appreciated. hope you'll join us at WCSB you too @sactowndog Haha. I am a bit surprised you added me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renoskier Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 On 6/9/2024 at 1:49 PM, sactowndog said: Haha. I am a bit surprised you added me. why? you're a good poster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjean87 Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 On 6/9/2024 at 12:46 PM, renoskier said: you bring a lot to the forum, it's appreciated. hope you'll join us at WCSB you too @sactowndog I'm there. Just posted a SCOTUS '24 thread. New username. Every 12 years just like a parish priest :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renoskier Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 On 6/9/2024 at 4:55 PM, grandjean87 said: I'm there. Just posted a SCOTUS '24 thread. New username. Every 12 years just like a parish priest :) I thought...but wasn't 100% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sactowndog Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 On 6/9/2024 at 4:37 PM, renoskier said: why? you're a good poster Let’s just say I don’t hear that often Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
