Free Palestine College Protests

[renoskier]

On 6/3/2024 at 12:42 PM, sactowndog said:

Second he wasn’t responding to me he was responding to @USUrobert 

so not only was your statement false it was inappropriately attributed.  

but I could have easily tagged you...

what's happening sucks but it's not genocide and could end tomorrow if Hamas would surrender

[sactowndog]

On 6/3/2024 at 2:32 PM, renoskier said:

but I could have easily tagged you...

what's happening sucks but it's not genocide and could end tomorrow if Hamas would surrender

One I never said it was genocide.  Two if you think Ben Givr and allies would stop it I have a bridge or two to sell you….

who do you think was responsible for Border Security in Gaza and let an attack happen over the most surveilled border in the world and waited 7 hours to respond.  If Ben Givr wanted to stop it he could have done so on Oct 7th.  

 

 

[USUrobert]

On 6/3/2024 at 10:05 AM, renoskier said:

I don't believe we're seeing "genocide".

and the body count would be lower if Hamas wasn't purposely hiding among women and children.

 

Bombing all bakeries, mills and fishing ports and then not letting food aid in doesn't seem related to Hamas hiding behind children. 

There are also many examples of them killing en masse indiscriminately when there was no evidence of any Hamas target.

It's obviously a complicated situation and nobody on this side of the world really fully knows what's going on. 

But in terms of why students are protesting, this is why. Israel in their view is currently engaged in genocide (and many probably also viewed Israel as a colonizing apartheid state even before this conflict). It really doesn't matter how backward or illiberal the people they're genociding may be.

[sactowndog]

On 6/3/2024 at 6:15 PM, USUrobert said:

Bombing all bakeries, mills and fishing ports and then not letting food aid in doesn't seem related to Hamas hiding behind children. 

There are also many examples of them killing en masse indiscriminately when there was no evidence of any Hamas target.

It's obviously a complicated situation and nobody on this side of the world really fully knows what's going on. 

But in terms of why students are protesting, this is why. Israel in their view is currently engaged in genocide (and many probably also viewed Israel as a colonizing apartheid state even before this conflict). It really doesn't matter how backward or illiberal the people they're genociding may be.

30% of American Jews think it is a Genocide

 

[sactowndog]

Not really a surprise when Ben-Givr and his allies are in the government and so many are willing to look the other way. 

[sactowndog]

This film is now available on major streaming services.  Created by a young Jewish woman it is pretty enlightening 

https://www.israelismfilm.com/

 

[grandjean87]

Probably goes better/the other longer thread, but just food for thought.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/how-hamas-ends-gaza

Basically argues there a number of ways Hamas could fail as others in the broad historical category have in the past, and that Israel should strategize to the last means:

Ways to end Hamas: Success of Hamas (not likely), transforming into something else: a criminal network or an insurgency (very possible), military repression (too many serious problems w/this strategy),decapitation: the arrest or killing of leaders (Hamas like a hydra so not likely), negotiation (hard to do, but try), and collapsing in on themselves or by losing support (best alternative strategy to push?). 

[sactowndog]

On 6/8/2024 at 10:28 AM, grandjean87 said:

Probably goes better/the other longer thread, but just food for thought.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/how-hamas-ends-gaza

Basically argues there a number of ways Hamas could fail as others in the broad historical category have in the past, and that Israel should strategize to the last means:

Ways to end Hamas: Success of Hamas (not likely), transforming into something else: a criminal network or an insurgency (very possible), military repression (too many serious problems w/this strategy),decapitation: the arrest or killing of leaders (Hamas like a hydra so not likely), negotiation (hard to do, but try), and collapsing in on themselves or by losing support (best alternative strategy to push?). 

That assumes the goal of Israel is to really remove Hamas instead of completing the Nakba from the river to the sea.  
 

if you have not watched Israelism, created by an American Jewish person, you should.  
 

@mugtang please watch it and tell me how you support Americans doing this stuff to other Americans.  Worst than Jim Crow in the 1950’s.  Tell me again it’s not about ethnic cleansing.  

[Nevada Convert]

On 6/8/2024 at 10:14 AM, sactowndog said:

This film is now available on major streaming services.  Created by a young Jewish woman it is pretty enlightening 

https://www.israelismfilm.com/

 

I’ll bet Loose Change 911 gave you a boner, as well. 

[Nevada Convert]

On 6/8/2024 at 10:28 AM, grandjean87 said:

Probably goes better/the other longer thread, but just food for thought.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/how-hamas-ends-gaza

Basically argues there a number of ways Hamas could fail as others in the broad historical category have in the past, and that Israel should strategize to the last means:

Ways to end Hamas: Success of Hamas (not likely), transforming into something else: a criminal network or an insurgency (very possible), military repression (too many serious problems w/this strategy),decapitation: the arrest or killing of leaders (Hamas like a hydra so not likely), negotiation (hard to do, but try), and collapsing in on themselves or by losing support (best alternative strategy to push?). 

Iran funds these groups, and if Iran is broke, they don’t. 

[Nevada Convert]

On 6/4/2024 at 2:04 PM, sactowndog said:

30% of American Jews think it is a Genocide

 

Since when do 30% of American Jews become experts on the IDF destroying Hamas?  Who f-ing cares. 

[grandjean87]

On 6/8/2024 at 11:36 AM, sactowndog said:

That assumes the goal of Israel is to really remove Hamas instead of completing the Nakba from the river to the sea.  
 

if you have not watched Israelism, created by an American Jewish person, you should.  
 

@mugtang please watch it and tell me how you support Americans doing this stuff to other Americans.  Worst than Jim Crow in the 1950’s.  Tell me again it’s not about ethnic cleansing.  

You didn't have time to read that article. 

[grandjean87]

On 6/8/2024 at 11:52 AM, Nevada Convert said:

Iran funds these groups, and if Iran is broke, they don’t. 

You didn't read the article. Not even scan. 

[sactowndog]

On 6/8/2024 at 10:50 AM, Nevada Convert said:

I’ll bet Loose Change 911 gave you a boner, as well. 

Did you watch it or do you refuse to hear what they have to say? 

[sactowndog]

On 6/8/2024 at 10:56 AM, grandjean87 said:

You didn't have time to read that article. 

You are correct.  And I will tell you why.  
 

It accepts the false premise this war is about eliminating Hamas.  I don’t believe that premise is at all true.  The real point is about ethnic cleansing.  I get you don’t believe me but perhaps you will believe a Jewish person.  Watch the movie.  Read the Bio of people like Ben-Givr.  Then come back and tell me you still believe it’s about eliminating Hamas.  

[grandjean87]

On 6/8/2024 at 12:07 PM, sactowndog said:

You are correct.  And I will tell you why.  
 

It accepts the false premise this war is about eliminating Hamas.  I don’t believe that premise is at all true.  The real point is about ethnic cleansing.  I get you don’t believe me but perhaps you will believe a Jewish person.  Watch the movie.  Read the Bio of people like Ben-Givr.  Then come back and tell me you still believe it’s about eliminating Hamas.  

Except one of the strategies essentially implies that if somewhat different in kind.  Which makes your reply quite presumptuous.  

I didn't offer any opinion other than very cursory outline of a fair-length read.  No opinion, no analysis.  Really nothing to exchange unless you read the FP author's analysis and summary views. 

[Nevada Convert]

On 6/8/2024 at 10:56 AM, grandjean87 said:

You didn't have time to read that article. 

Too busy today.

[sactowndog]

On 6/8/2024 at 11:26 AM, grandjean87 said:

Except one of the strategies essentially implies that if somewhat different in kind.  Which makes your reply quite presumptuous.  

I didn't offer any opinion other than very cursory outline of a fair-length read.  No opinion, no analysis.  Really nothing to exchange unless you read the FP author's analysis and summary views. 

I went off the summary and start of the article not any statement of yours.  If my assumption from that initial impression was incorrect I will go back and read it and reply with my thoughts.  
 

in that spirit have you watched Israelism? 

[sactowndog]

On 6/8/2024 at 10:28 AM, grandjean87 said:

Probably goes better/the other longer thread, but just food for thought.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/how-hamas-ends-gaza

Basically argues there a number of ways Hamas could fail as others in the broad historical category have in the past, and that Israel should strategize to the last means:

Ways to end Hamas: Success of Hamas (not likely), transforming into something else: a criminal network or an insurgency (very possible), military repression (too many serious problems w/this strategy),decapitation: the arrest or killing of leaders (Hamas like a hydra so not likely), negotiation (hard to do, but try), and collapsing in on themselves or by losing support (best alternative strategy to push?). 

So I said I would read out of respect for your opinion and my opinion hasn’t changed. Through the entire article it compares it to situations that had no relation to the facts on the ground in Gaza: the Uruguayans were not trying to remove Uruguayan citizens, the Protestants were not trying to remove the Catholics, etc.   

Anybody that takes a realistic look at Gaza calls it what it is which is an attempt at ethic cleansing which is exactly what is also occurring in the West Bank 

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/ethnic-cleansing-gaza/

or watch 

Israelism

if the article were a responsible piece of Journalism not biased by US pro Israel forces it would have instead compared Israel’s campaign to:  

* the Indian Relocation Act

* the Armenian massacres by the Turks 

* the expulsion of Germans from Polish and Czech territory 

* the expulsion of Bosnians from parts of Yugoslavia 

* the removal of Crimean Tatars 

* the first Nakba of Palestinians 

Instead it starts with a false premise and explores options that have no basis in reality.  

Sadly the U.S. is intimately involved in the first on the list and will be intimately involved in the last.  It’s also not really a surprise that Trump’s favorite President was Grant.  I fully expect him to win and the Palestinian Ethnic cleansing from the River to the Sea to be completed.  

May God have mercy on our souls. 

[grandjean87]

On 6/8/2024 at 7:42 PM, sactowndog said:

So I said I would read out of respect for your opinion and my opinion hasn’t changed. Through the entire article it compares it to situations that had no relation to the facts on the ground in Gaza: the Uruguayans were not trying to remove Uruguayan citizens, the Protestants were not trying to remove the Catholics, etc.   

Anybody that takes a realistic look at Gaza calls it what it is which is an attempt at ethic cleansing which is exactly what is also occurring in the West Bank 

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/ethnic-cleansing-gaza/

or watch 

Israelism

if the article were a responsible piece of Journalism not biased by US pro Israel forces it would have instead compared Israel’s campaign to:  

* the Indian Relocation Act

* the Armenian massacres by the Turks 

* the expulsion of Germans from Polish and Czech territory 

* the expulsion of Bosnians from parts of Yugoslavia 

* the removal of Crimean Tatars 

* the first Nakba of Palestinians 

Instead it starts with a false premise and explores options that have no basis in reality.  

Sadly the U.S. is intimately involved in the first on the list and will be intimately involved in the last.  It’s also not really a surprise that Trump’s favorite President was Grant.  I fully expect him to win and the Palestinian Ethnic cleansing from the River to the Sea to be completed.  

May God have mercy on our souls. 

Well, you missed at least one or two contemporary (as in this past year or ongoing) global de-populations/cleansings.  You also missed the one from two decades back that was in the article.  I'm not interested in tutoring understanding at this point. 

Anyway, the thesis was the best strategy for Israel would be to turn away from their failed militarism response and work towards the last two strategies.  Not sure why you would be against that, but I didn't voice an opinion on the authors'  thesis so whatever.