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madmartigan

FBI Director: Antisemitism now at historic levels

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https://www.ksl.com/article/50771005/fbi-director-antisemitism-reaching-historic-level-in-us

Truly sad. The slaughtering of thousands of Jews has brought out the cockroaches in the US and abroad sadly. This is also shocking given that under the previous President anti-semitism rose markedly. 

There are only two things I can't stand in this world: people who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch. 

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On 11/1/2023 at 7:37 AM, madmartigan said:

https://www.ksl.com/article/50771005/fbi-director-antisemitism-reaching-historic-level-in-us

Truly sad. The slaughtering of thousands of Jews has brought out the cockroaches in the US and abroad sadly. This is also shocking given that under the previous President anti-semitism rose markedly. 

I fear a growing normalization of anti-Semitism. Or more accurately, I fear anti-Zionism is evolving into anti-Semitism, or using one to excuse the other. Maybe that's where we've always been with Israel? It's a convenient excuse to be anti-Semitic? I would hope not, but the growing numbers of the younger generation participating in anti-Israel demonstrations is alarming.

No matter how long I live, I don't think I will ever understand religious-based hate. I just can't wrap my head around it.

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On 11/1/2023 at 9:00 AM, SharkTanked said:

I fear a growing normalization of anti-Semitism. Or more accurately, I fear anti-Zionism is evolving into anti-Semitism, or using one to excuse the other. Maybe that's where we've always been with Israel? It's a convenient excuse to be anti-Semitic? I would hope not, but the growing numbers of the younger generation participating in anti-Israel demonstrations is alarming.

No matter how long I live, I don't think I will ever understand religious-based hate. I just can't wrap my head around it.

A few observations

  • I think a lot of "anti-zionists" are actually anti-semitic and use that as a veil
  • I also don't understand religious bigotry- you can criticize a religion or Israel as a country without being hateful against its people. I was born and raised LDS and I never understood people that hated on me just because I was LDS. Even though Mormons believe some objectively weird things, I don't think it's generally productive to hate a person because of their beliefs. 
  • I find it extremely odd that the far left are such ardent defenders of Palestine- Islamic states in general do not come close to representing liberal values. A gay person, for example, would have a much better life and be much more accepted in Israel than in Palestine. 
  • I have a massive package both in terms of volume and length. 

There are only two things I can't stand in this world: people who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch. 

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On 11/1/2023 at 8:17 AM, madmartigan said:

A few observations

  • I think a lot of "anti-zionists" are actually anti-semitic and use that as a veil
  • I also don't understand religious bigotry- you can criticize a religion or Israel as a country without being hateful against its people. I was born and raised LDS and I never understood people that hated on me just because I was LDS. Even though Mormons believe some objectively weird things, I don't think it's generally productive to hate a person because of their beliefs. 
  • I find it extremely odd that the far left are such ardent defenders of Palestine- Islamic states in general do not come close to representing liberal values. A gay person, for example, would have a much better life and be much more accepted in Israel than in Palestine. 
  • I have a massive package both in terms of volume and length. 

Yes, the far-left aligning with other nation's far-right is certainly strange. I guess they view it as oppressors vs the oppressed, but I am not sure they have the sides correct. Or at least it is far more nuanced than fits on a protest sign. Clearly either they see Israel as the aggressor or they exhibit anti-Semitism. Probably bits of both going on. What is concerning is the growth of the anti-Israel movement without a lot of discussion as to why, and seemingly without any discussion of Israel's motivations (outside the "colonialism" arguments that want to paint Israel as a slaver, etc.).

I get Israel has done wrong to the Palestinians, and I get that their current expansions and treatment of Gaza is bad policy. But the discussion needs a broader perspective too.

Bottom line, there is a time and place for a policy debate, but not after one of the largest terrorist acts in history. To frame that debate now, definitely comes across as anti-semitism.

ETA: Some context on the "nuance" I referred to above... the current college age crowd doesn't remember, but Gen X sure does...

 

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On 11/1/2023 at 9:10 AM, renoskier said:

The Ugly, Violent Clichés of White-Supremacist Terrorism | The New Yorker

"Jews will not replace us!"

 

never understood...where did anti-Semitism come from? 

I mean, it's been around almost as long as Western Civilization it seems. Judaism being the root of nearly all monotheistic religions, it's pretty bizarre. But people are bizarre creatures.

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On 11/1/2023 at 10:10 AM, renoskier said:

The Ugly, Violent Clichés of White-Supremacist Terrorism | The New Yorker

"Jews will not replace us!"

 

never understood...where did anti-Semitism come from? 

Good question: it's pretty odd how much the far left and far right sound like each other though. 

There are only two things I can't stand in this world: people who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch. 

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On 11/1/2023 at 9:48 AM, madmartigan said:

Good question: it's pretty odd how much the far left and far right sound like each other though. 

Insert that diagram of the circular model of political belief... as one goes farther right or farther left, they meet... the extremely confused moderates on the bottom of the circle...

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On 11/1/2023 at 11:10 AM, renoskier said:

The Ugly, Violent Clichés of White-Supremacist Terrorism | The New Yorker

"Jews will not replace us!"

 

never understood...where did anti-Semitism come from? 

it's like Redd Foxx said, every group has someone who hates them.

 

 

"If there were blue people on Earth, somebody would hate them.  Probably be black people - 'Look at those damn blue people' "

It gives me a headache just trying to think down to your level

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On 11/1/2023 at 10:55 AM, RSF said:

it's like Redd Foxx said, every group has someone who hates them.

 

 

"If there were blue people on Earth, somebody would hate them.  Probably be black people - 'Look at those damn blue people' "

With Jews it's more extreme though. They have been the target of pograms and ethnic cleansing many times over. I'm not an advanced student of history, but I doubt a minority group has had more of its people systematically murdered with such frequency and consistency over the course of time as the Jews have. 

There are only two things I can't stand in this world: people who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch. 

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On 11/1/2023 at 11:00 AM, SharkTanked said:

I fear a growing normalization of anti-Semitism. Or more accurately, I fear anti-Zionism is evolving into anti-Semitism, or using one to excuse the other. Maybe that's where we've always been with Israel? It's a convenient excuse to be anti-Semitic? I would hope not, but the growing numbers of the younger generation participating in anti-Israel demonstrations is alarming.

No matter how long I live, I don't think I will ever understand religious-based hate. I just can't wrap my head around it.

I think a lot of anti semites use anti-Zionism (or even just critiques of Israel) as cover. I mean... that isn't exactly unique to Israel. One of the biggest reasons why it's dicey as hell to make racial or sexual preference jokes is that a lot of bigots use that as cover. "ha ha xxx made this joke, I'm just doing it too!" 

Unlike that, though, Israel is a nation state and Zionism is a political movement. Due to their natures they are going to be subject to critiques. It provides a better next for anti-semites to hide in. Self censoring jokes is a bit of a drag but it's better than giving cover to asswipes; self censoring political discussion for eternity isn't tenable. 

Most of the anti-Zionist commentary or critiques of Israel are framed from the start to avoid anti-semitism. People going out of their way to say "Zionism isn't Judaism, Israel is not all jews, and the problem we have is Israel's political policy, not its existence". Like you're saying though it doesn't seem like it's enough, there's a swarm of anti semites coming out of seemingly nowhere. Why? From where? what the hell? Were they always there? this shit bothers me. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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On 11/1/2023 at 10:00 AM, happycamper said:

I think a lot of anti semites use anti-Zionism (or even just critiques of Israel) as cover. I mean... that isn't exactly unique to Israel. One of the biggest reasons why it's dicey as hell to make racial or sexual preference jokes is that a lot of bigots use that as cover. "ha ha xxx made this joke, I'm just doing it too!" 

Unlike that, though, Israel is a nation state and Zionism is a political movement. Due to their natures they are going to be subject to critiques. It provides a better next for anti-semites to hide in. Self censoring jokes is a bit of a drag but it's better than giving cover to asswipes; self censoring political discussion for eternity isn't tenable. 

Most of the anti-Zionist commentary or critiques of Israel are framed from the start to avoid anti-semitism. People going out of their way to say "Zionism isn't Judaism, Israel is not all jews, and the problem we have is Israel's political policy, not its existence". Like you're saying though it doesn't seem like it's enough, there's a swarm of anti semites coming out of seemingly nowhere. Why? From where? what the hell? Were they always there? this shit bothers me. 

It comes down to the inherent problem of theocracies. Political policy and religious existence become intertwined. 

@madmartigan this is why people have a problem with Utah. :ph34r: Just needed to get my anti-Mormon bigotry out of the way...

Seriously though, with actual theocracy, disagreement towards political policy frequently automatically become equated to bigotry towards the controlling religion. It is convenient cover for despots to enrage the masses while insulating themselves from democratic revolution (or really any dissidence at all). The problem is, there does not seem to be any Enlightenment movement to counterbalance. The European model can't take hold. Maybe the majority are happy to hate while they starve, and they are happy to hate the "others" who don't believe what they believe instead of the actual failing leaders?

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On 11/1/2023 at 11:11 AM, SharkTanked said:

It comes down to the inherent problem of theocracies. Political policy and religious existence become intertwined. 

@madmartigan this is why people have a problem with Utah. :ph34r: Just needed to get my anti-Mormon bigotry out of the way...

Seriously though, with actual theocracy, disagreement towards political policy frequently automatically become equated to bigotry towards the controlling religion. It is convenient cover for despots to enrage the masses while insulating themselves from democratic revolution (or really any dissidence at all). The problem is, there does not seem to be any Enlightenment movement to counterbalance. The European model can't take hold. Maybe the majority are happy to hate while they starve, and they are happy to hate the "others" who don't believe what they believe instead of the actual failing leaders?

I'm not a believer anymore, but let's fight. Also, Utah is totally a theocracy. 

There are only two things I can't stand in this world: people who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch. 

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On 11/1/2023 at 10:35 AM, Bob said:

Weird - more Muslims in the USA than ever before and more Jew hating than ever before.

@Bob turns a rebuke of anti-Semitism into an anti-Muslim statement.

Sean Flanagan Fah GIF by Foil Arms and Hog

Any idea how many Christians are anti-semites? There's one really infamous one.

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On 11/1/2023 at 8:30 AM, SharkTanked said:

Yes, the far-left aligning with other nation's far-right is certainly strange. I guess they view it as oppressors vs the oppressed, but I am not sure they have the sides correct. Or at least it is far more nuanced than fits on a protest sign. Clearly either they see Israel as the aggressor or they exhibit anti-Semitism. Probably bits of both going on. What is concerning is the growth of the anti-Israel movement without a lot of discussion as to why, and seemingly without any discussion of Israel's motivations (outside the "colonialism" arguments that want to paint Israel as a slaver, etc.).

I get Israel has done wrong to the Palestinians, and I get that their current expansions and treatment of Gaza is bad policy. But the discussion needs a broader perspective too.

Bottom line, there is a time and place for a policy debate, but not after one of the largest terrorist acts in history. To frame that debate now, definitely comes across as anti-semitism.

ETA: Some context on the "nuance" I referred to above... the current college age crowd doesn't remember, but Gen X sure does...

 

92% of Jewish Americans identity as white. So there’s probably also a perception by Americans that Jews are white, and it’s an example of whites dominating and treating people of color horribly. 

kat.jpg

 

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On 11/1/2023 at 1:56 PM, Bob said:

Deflect all you want , but it’s true. Ultra Liberals and Muslims are by far the most anti-Semitic in the USA. More people getting brainwashed in in higher education doesn’t help either

so true. that's why it is the maga guys who are doing synagogue shootings. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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On 11/1/2023 at 12:50 PM, SharkTanked said:

Insert that diagram of the circular model of political belief... as one goes farther right or farther left, they meet... the extremely confused moderates on the bottom of the circle...

Something like the horseshoe theory:

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTAzuPWCY-XsnF3yUu6q6L

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On 11/1/2023 at 12:53 PM, CV147 said:

Something like the horseshoe theory:

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTAzuPWCY-XsnF3yUu6q6L

As our resident board centrist, what are your thoughts on this @Nevada Convert

There are only two things I can't stand in this world: people who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch. 

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