Hamas - Israel - Iran - Middle East - WW III

[sactowndog]

On 12/18/2023 at 6:23 PM, soupslam1 said:

You can deny all you want but all your posts say otherwise. Are you or your wife Palestinian? Or you just hate Jews for whatever reason. 

My posts are all specifically about Likud.  If you actually read them thoughtfully you would see I always use the Israeli government or Likud.  I never respond with Jewish people generally and in fact many who share my opinions are Jewish. So generalizing about Jewish people would be inaccurate.  
 

I get in redneck Idaho you are not very culturally diverse so the above might shock you.  

[halfmanhalfbronco]

On 12/18/2023 at 6:45 PM, sactowndog said:

Write Rueters.  

Why?  That report was pretty clear.  Hamas launched an attack on Israeli forces from a hospital compound so return fire was given.  Pretty +++++ing simple.  That is not "bombing hospitals" you evil sack of shit.

[smltwnrckr]

On 12/13/2023 at 3:41 PM, toonkee said:

I asked in good faith. I understand this all didn't begin on October 7th, but how should have Israel responded to the events of that day? 

I didn't mean to imply you were not asking in good faith. It is a reasonable question in narrow contexts, I think as an addendum to my earlier statement. But the state of Israel is quickly turning to asking for forgiveness instead of permission after thousands of children are dead. But before the children died, the IDF stated over and over that we should allow them to kill children without questioning them because Hamas brutally and terribly killed children. 

The fact is that, if we are going to look backwards  and ask the question of what Israel should have done after Oct. 7, then we shouldn't stop there. We should also look back further and reckon with the very real fact that Hamas being in control of Gaza was a desired policy outcome for the Israeli government. 

But, in all of that, the short answer to the initial question is: "Not do what they did."

[smltwnrckr]

On 12/14/2023 at 11:44 PM, soupslam1 said:

Actually it was asked in good faith. I’d like to hear your answer. What would you have done if in an Israeli position of power? No one has even attempted to provide an answer. 

Some have said they wouldn’t retaliate like the Israelis have but they haven’t said what their response would be. 

I mean, see my response above. If we're gonna play the counterfactual history game, we should go back to the causes of the causes.

I would have more sympathy for the good faith question if the the state of Israel didn't immediately send spokesmen to international media sources to tell the world that we should absolve them of all their actions after Oct. 7 because of what happened. So, they didn't ask the question you are asking. Why should I ask it for them?

But, again, IMO what you shouldn't do after a brutal attack that killed 1,400 people is to brutally attack and kill 16,000 and counting and demand that the entire international community (and God) absolve you of it. That is the opposite of the answer, IMO.

[AztecAlien]

On 12/19/2023 at 12:29 PM, smltwnrckr said:

I mean, see my response above. If we're gonna play the counterfactual history game, we should go back to the causes of the causes.

I would have more sympathy for the good faith question if the the state of Israel didn't immediately send spokesmen to international media sources to tell the world that we should absolve them of all their actions after Oct. 7 because of what happened. So, they didn't ask the question you are asking. Why should I ask it for them?

But, again, IMO what you shouldn't do after a brutal attack that killed 1,400 people is to brutally attack and kill 16,000 and counting and demand that the entire international community (and God) absolve you of it. That is the opposite of the answer, IMO.

Here's the answer to your answer. There is no answer. If you look back at history as you kindly pointed out, this isn't going away anytime time soon with or without a ceasefire. Both sides are fighting for their existence as many people have in the past. War has been part of human history with hundreds of millions of civilian casualties since we became civilized, if you will. The difference today is the internet. Both sides are using it as a weapon to justify their beliefs and as an argument for their actions while spreading propaganda and hate to the rest of the world at record speeds.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SharkTanked]

On 12/19/2023 at 11:29 AM, smltwnrckr said:

I mean, see my response above. If we're gonna play the counterfactual history game, we should go back to the causes of the causes.

I would have more sympathy for the good faith question if the the state of Israel didn't immediately send spokesmen to international media sources to tell the world that we should absolve them of all their actions after Oct. 7 because of what happened. So, they didn't ask the question you are asking. Why should I ask it for them?

But, again, IMO what you shouldn't do after a brutal attack that killed 1,400 people is to brutally attack and kill 16,000 and counting and demand that the entire international community (and God) absolve you of it. That is the opposite of the answer, IMO.

The danger in looking backwards, in that neighborhood especially, is how far back do you go? This is "tale as old as time" stuff and it the discussion devolves into the ludicrous eventually. The area is the definition of SNAFU.

[AztecAlien]

On 12/19/2023 at 1:27 PM, SharkTanked said:

The danger in looking backwards, in that neighborhood especially, is how far back do you go? This is "tale as old as time" stuff and it the discussion devolves into the ludicrous eventually. The area is the definition of SNAFU.

How far back do you go? You know the saying about history repeating itself. However, it doesn't seem like humans have learned anything from it. Cleanse and repeat. 

 

 

[SharkTanked]

On 12/19/2023 at 12:49 PM, AztecAlien said:

How far back do you go? You know the saying about history repeating itself. However, it doesn't seem like humans have learned anything from it. Cleanse and repeat. 

 

 

History repeating itself once every 100 yrs or more is one thing. History repeating itself once a decade or less is another. I think the Israel vs Palestinians/Arab World isn't really a case of history repeating itself. It's an indefinite loop. An unending cycle. History and present are nearly indistinguishable. It's one area where there really isn't any value to a historical analysis on the conflict. It's a never ending conflict.

[smltwnrckr]

On 12/19/2023 at 12:10 PM, AztecAlien said:

Here's the answer to your answer. There is no answer. If you look back at history as you kindly pointed out, this isn't going away anytime time soon with or without a ceasefire. Both sides are fighting for their existence as many people have in the past. War has been part of human history with hundreds of millions of civilian casualties since we became civilized, if you will. The difference today is the internet. Both sides are using it as a weapon to justify their beliefs and as an argument for their actions while spreading propaganda and hate to the rest of the world at record speeds.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 12/19/2023 at 12:27 PM, SharkTanked said:

The danger in looking backwards, in that neighborhood especially, is how far back do you go? This is "tale as old as time" stuff and it the discussion devolves into the ludicrous eventually. The area is the definition of SNAFU.

 

On 12/19/2023 at 12:49 PM, AztecAlien said:

How far back do you go? You know the saying about history repeating itself. However, it doesn't seem like humans have learned anything from it. Cleanse and repeat. 

 

 

Yes, violence is a tale as old as time. 

 But this tale is not as old as time. This tale has a history, that started at a particular time, not all that long ago. 1948 is not as old as time.

But, let's assume this is a tale as old as time. There is, then, an answer to that question about what to do. Give people their rights. 

[AztecAlien]

 

[AztecAlien]

On 12/19/2023 at 1:59 PM, SharkTanked said:

History repeating itself once every 100 yrs or more is one thing. History repeating itself once a decade or less is another. I think the Israel vs Palestinians/Arab World isn't really a case of history repeating itself. It's an indefinite loop. An unending cycle. History and present are nearly indistinguishable. It's one area where there really isn't any value to a historical analysis on the conflict. It's a never ending conflict.

This particular conflict isn't that old as far as history goes. But I also think there is historical value to the conflict. Both sides have claims to that land historically. However, how many conflicts of the same resemblance have taken place throughout the Middle East or history for that matter? I agree it will just go round and round unless one side wins. In that case no one really wins. 

 

 

 

[AztecAlien]

On 12/19/2023 at 2:17 PM, smltwnrckr said:

 

 

Yes, violence is a tale as old as time. 

 But this tale is not as old as time. This tale has a history, that started at a particular time, not all that long ago. 1948 is not as old as time.

But, let's assume this is a tale as old as time. There is, then, an answer to that question about what to do. Give people their rights. 

A lot of strategic mistakes made in 1948. But that doesn't mean one side is wrong and one side is right. If the tables were turned, would Palestinians give Jews their rights? Like I said, there are no answers. 

 

[smltwnrckr]

On 12/19/2023 at 1:37 PM, AztecAlien said:

A lot of strategic mistakes made in 1948. But that doesn't mean one side is wrong and one side is right. If the tables were turned, would Palestinians give Jews their rights? Like I said, there are no answers. 

 

Well, there were jews in Palestine before 1948. You can go look at rhe history for yourself and compare what life was like for them then and what like is like now for Palestinians in Gaza. 

[AztecAlien]

On 12/19/2023 at 3:01 PM, smltwnrckr said:

Well, there were jews in Palestine before 1948. You can go look at rhe history for yourself and compare what life was like for them then and what like is like now for Palestinians in Gaza. 

What part of history would like to go back to regarding Jews being exiled out of the Middle East and other parts of the world? Maybe you would like like to talk about the millions of Jews that were exterminated before 1948. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RSF]

On 12/19/2023 at 4:12 PM, AztecAlien said:

Maybe you would like like to talk about the millions of Jews that were exterminated before 1948. 

 

When the Palestinians bombed Pearl Harbor...

[GoDogs22]

On 12/19/2023 at 2:24 PM, RSF said:

When the Palestinians bombed Pearl Harbor...

 

He's on a roll

 

[SharkTanked]

On 12/19/2023 at 1:17 PM, smltwnrckr said:

 

 

Yes, violence is a tale as old as time. 

 But this tale is not as old as time. This tale has a history, that started at a particular time, not all that long ago. 1948 is not as old as time.

But, let's assume this is a tale as old as time. There is, then, an answer to that question about what to do. Give people their rights. 

But that's the thing, 1948 is a line in the sand. One can argue other lines.

I would be fine with giving all the people their rights. But I don't live there, I have no personal investment via heritage of that place. I can't say what they actually want.

[Old_SD_Dude]

On 12/19/2023 at 2:12 PM, AztecAlien said:

What part of history would like to go back to regarding Jews being exiled out of the Middle East and other parts of the world? Maybe you would like like to talk about the millions of Jews that were exterminated before 1948. 

Not by Palestinians. 

[AztecAlien]

On 12/19/2023 at 4:42 PM, Old_SD_Dude said:

Not by Palestinians. 

Wasn't my point. However, others have made it perfectly clear what side they have taken. As I stated before, both sides are fighting for their existence. Regardless of who claims victory, there will be no winners. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[soupslam1]

On 12/19/2023 at 12:21 PM, smltwnrckr said:

I didn't mean to imply you were not asking in good faith. It is a reasonable question in narrow contexts, I think as an addendum to my earlier statement. But the state of Israel is quickly turning to asking for forgiveness instead of permission after thousands of children are dead. But before the children died, the IDF stated over and over that we should allow them to kill children without questioning them because Hamas brutally and terribly killed children. 

The fact is that, if we are going to look backwards  and ask the question of what Israel should have done after Oct. 7, then we shouldn't stop there. We should also look back further and reckon with the very real fact that Hamas being in control of Gaza was a desired policy outcome for the Israeli government. 

But, in all of that, the short answer to the initial question is: "Not do what they did."

Good job of deflecting