RSF Posted September 27 Share Posted September 27 On 9/27/2023 at 1:25 PM, happycamper said: yes. this is why teslas are built so well. damn...sarcasm detector redlined on that one... 1 1 1 1 Quote The louder someone claims to know something, the less they generally know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happycamper Posted September 27 Share Posted September 27 On 9/27/2023 at 3:11 PM, Los_Aztecas said: Depends if you are salary or hourly. I'm hourly and with incentives + OT pay it makes a huge difference if I work an extra shift or two a week. yeah my overtime pay my first few years out of college really really helped out in terms of getting a house and getting married. but, they didn't set me up any better to move up and i was staring at being put at salary at roughly the same annual gross for the next 10 years due to how much OT I was getting. it works well in some industries, from what i understand works great for nurses. does not work great in engineering, you're expected to move up to salary at past entry level and then what? 1 Quote Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdad Posted September 27 Share Posted September 27 On 9/27/2023 at 2:11 PM, Los_Aztecas said: Depends if you are salary or hourly. I'm hourly and with incentives + OT pay it makes a huge difference if I work an extra shift or two a week. Working a lot of hours as a new accountant won't pay overtime, but it pays dividends in the long run. We're not talking about what's coming on your next paycheck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdad Posted September 27 Share Posted September 27 On 9/27/2023 at 2:28 PM, happycamper said: yeah my overtime pay my first few years out of college really really helped out in terms of getting a house and getting married. but, they didn't set me up any better to move up and i was staring at being put at salary at roughly the same annual gross for the next 10 years due to how much OT I was getting. it works well in some industries, from what i understand works great for nurses. does not work great in engineering, you're expected to move up to salary at past entry level and then what? What do you mean "then what"". You keep proving yourself and keep moving up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornontheblue Posted September 27 Author Share Posted September 27 On 9/27/2023 at 12:39 PM, SalinasSpartan said: Sounds like you only “don’t have a problem” with collective bargaining so long as the union just assents to whatever the employer is offering without a fight. Again you are wrong. If they come in with an unworkable demand then they shouldn't be surprised when the other party walks away and tries to find a way to outflank them. Try coming in with a demand demand that is workable for both sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happycamper Posted September 27 Share Posted September 27 On 9/27/2023 at 3:30 PM, Slapdad said: What do you mean "then what"". You keep proving yourself and keep moving up. lmao the only thing that proves to your bosses is that you're a pushover little bitch. the 'then what' is actually that you don't move up because your profit margin at hourly is so great, or that when you do move up you get the same company salary band as everyone else, but they shovel more shit on you because they know you won't bitch at working more than everyone else. your ideas of how aec works is... hilariously naive. like just tackle the fullback 1 Quote Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSF Posted September 27 Share Posted September 27 On 9/27/2023 at 2:32 PM, bornontheblue said: Again you are wrong. If they come in with an unworkable demand then they shouldn't be surprised when the other party walks away and tries to find a way to outflank them. Try coming in with a demand demand that is workable for both sides. Unworkable demand....bargaining position......same same... Quote The louder someone claims to know something, the less they generally know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happycamper Posted September 27 Share Posted September 27 On 9/27/2023 at 3:32 PM, bornontheblue said: Again you are wrong. If they come in with an unworkable demand then they shouldn't be surprised when the other party walks away and tries to find a way to outflank them. Try coming in with a demand demand that is workable for both sides. what do you think just not coming to an agreement is? you realize that the striking workers aren't getting paid right? so they have a hell of an incentive, and a lot more direct incentive, than the manufacturers to come to an agreement? Quote Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SalinasSpartan Posted September 27 Share Posted September 27 On 9/27/2023 at 12:32 PM, bornontheblue said: Again you are wrong. If they come in with an unworkable demand then they shouldn't be surprised when the other party walks away and tries to find a way to outflank them. Try coming in with a demand demand that is workable for both sides. Sure, those are great generic statements. But I imagine we differ greatly on what we consider to be a “workable demand”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los_Aztecas Posted September 27 Share Posted September 27 On 9/27/2023 at 11:28 AM, happycamper said: yeah my overtime pay my first few years out of college really really helped out in terms of getting a house and getting married. but, they didn't set me up any better to move up and i was staring at being put at salary at roughly the same annual gross for the next 10 years due to how much OT I was getting. it works well in some industries, from what i understand works great for nurses. does not work great in engineering, you're expected to move up to salary at past entry level and then what? I think it depends on situation/company dynamics. One of my close friends is an experienced ME, works in the aerospace fields and is hourly. He makes way more than he would if he was salary because of the obscene amount of OT they pay him. They don't give him the OT because they want to, they do it because he's experienced, good at his job, and his OT is worth more than hiring someone else. Then again his work life balance sucks. Same as me, if I'm working 60 a week I don't have time for much of anything else, but as long as you aren't being frivolous with that money it will pay dividends down the road. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted September 27 Share Posted September 27 On 9/27/2023 at 12:00 PM, happycamper said: yes. yes! the people who work at building cars shouldn't get that car money. it should be the select few people from the Right classes who went to the Right schools and who got the Right degrees! see this is why we are truly the party of the working man well then the workers should be free to start their own company, right? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toonkee Posted September 27 Share Posted September 27 On 9/27/2023 at 12:13 PM, SalinasSpartan said: Nobody is doing that in this situation. Auto workers are negotiating with CEOs as to how much the auto workers should be paid. This thread is full of discussion about what someone deserves or what is fair or unfair or deserved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akkula Posted September 27 Share Posted September 27 I have an MA and BA in economics. I can't remember much from all those years back but I do remember that we would all sit around and talk about how things like NAFTA worked. The theory of comparative advantage was always interesting. It said every country should focus on what they are most efficient at and let other countries do the other stuff the other country is good at. The theory is that you would get the most overall economic output/GDP if you did things that way. The thing that was always a big mystery that economics didn't know how to solve is WHO will benefit in each country from this bigger pie. Decades later....we found out the answer that nobody could answer back then. WHO benefited was the billionaires and the CEOs....WHO "benefited" were the workers in countries that were willing to sell their labor for the lowest price.. WHO benefited were countries that had zero environmental and labor standards. The poor workers in third world countries benefitted because they got out of the sewer and onto the sidewalk. The workers in poor countries BARELY got anything and they had to choke on noxious pollution but at least it was better than before! The big beneficiaries were the wealthy outsourcers who could cut the legs out from under workers to hire cheap labor abroad and import their products into the USA with not strings attached. The working classes in the USA went from having a hefty slice of a medium size pie to a sliver of a giant economic pie. They were the losers in this giveaway. They were all supposed to have the "opium" of getting cheap Chinese consumer goods as their reward. They could no longer afford a house nor an education but at least a flat screen tv was cheap! What is my opinion on Unions? I think it is predictable that the Republican/Democrat color war partisans will take their sides according to how they have been conditioned over generations. In my opinion Unions are sort of silly 1930s entities that were really important back in the days when all the competition for jobs were internal workers inside the USA. All the "scabs" were in the country. In my opinion....if the FEDERAL government doesn't stop the "no strings attached" give away to the wealthy the working class will go further and further into the toilet. If our trade policies are designed to push our working class to the same level as the poor countries, the working class is toast. Until the FEDERAL industrial policy is to set tariffs, wage standards, and environmental standards to a level where poor countries have an incentive to bring UP the average condition of their working classes, our working class is screwed. We have set up the whole rules of the game to favor the rich industrialist and the CEOs to be able to push wages and conditions of the working class down. The real question should be how do we change this to truly be "America First" with our working classes. When that is the case there is no need for Unions or Union shops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjean87 Posted September 27 Share Posted September 27 On 9/27/2023 at 2:03 PM, toonkee said: This thread is full of discussion about what someone deserves or what is fair or unfair or deserved. Imagine there's no management. It isn't hard to do. No free stock options. No worker exploitation, too. Imagine all the workers living life in peace. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only onebluefan... ...getting nauseated 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdad Posted September 27 Share Posted September 27 On 9/27/2023 at 2:33 PM, happycamper said: lmao the only thing that proves to your bosses is that you're a pushover little bitch. the 'then what' is actually that you don't move up because your profit margin at hourly is so great, or that when you do move up you get the same company salary band as everyone else, but they shovel more shit on you because they know you won't bitch at working more than everyone else. your ideas of how aec works is... hilariously naive. like just tackle the fullback No, it proves that you're an adult who does their job no matter what it take, takes ownership of what you do, has a strong work ethic, and has the long game in mind. Your view is typical of the younger generation who demand instant gratification for no sacrifice. It's the mindset of people who end up building cars....and you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los_Aztecas Posted September 27 Share Posted September 27 On 9/27/2023 at 11:28 AM, Slapdad said: Working a lot of hours as a new accountant won't pay overtime, but it pays dividends in the long run. We're not talking about what's coming on your next paycheck. Maybe I'm cynical, but I don't trust promises of future benefits if I just sacrifice now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akkula Posted September 27 Share Posted September 27 On 9/27/2023 at 2:16 PM, Slapdad said: No, it proves that you're an adult who does their job no matter what it take, takes ownership of what you do, has a strong work ethic, and has the long game in mind. Your view is typical of the younger generation who demand instant gratification for no sacrifice. It's the mindset of people who end up building cars....and you. Sorry but you sound like a boomer who doesn't realize that the world has changed tremendously since the 1970s. Just putting your head down and working like an idiot in a dead end job to make someone else rich is not a path to success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjean87 Posted September 27 Share Posted September 27 On 9/27/2023 at 2:04 PM, Akkula said: I have an MA and BA in economics. I can't remember much from all those years back but I do remember that we would all sit around and talk about how things like NAFTA worked. The theory of comparative advantage was always interesting. It said every country should focus on what they are most efficient at and let other countries do the other stuff the other country is good at. The theory is that you would get the most overall economic output/GDP if you did things that way. The thing that was always a big mystery that economics didn't know how to solve is WHO will benefit in each country from this bigger pie. Decades later....we found out the answer that nobody could answer back then. WHO benefited was the billionaires and the CEOs....WHO "benefited" were the workers in countries that were willing to sell their labor for the lowest price.. WHO benefited were countries that had zero environmental and labor standards. The poor workers in third world countries benefitted because they got out of the sewer and onto the sidewalk. The workers in poor countries BARELY got anything and they had to choke on noxious pollution but at least it was better than before! The big beneficiaries were the wealthy outsourcers who could cut the legs out from under workers to hire cheap labor abroad and import their products into the USA with not strings attached. The working classes in the USA went from having a hefty slice of a medium size pie to a sliver of a giant economic pie. They were the losers in this giveaway. They were all supposed to have the "opium" of getting cheap Chinese consumer goods as their reward. They could no longer afford a house nor an education but at least a flat screen tv was cheap! What is my opinion on Unions? I think it is predictable that the Republican/Democrat color war partisans will take their sides according to how they have been conditioned over generations. In my opinion Unions are sort of silly 1930s entities that were really important back in the days when all the competition for jobs were internal workers inside the USA. All the "scabs" were in the country. In my opinion....if the FEDERAL government doesn't stop the "no strings attached" give away to the wealthy the working class will go further and further into the toilet. If our trade policies are designed to push our working class to the same level as the poor countries, the working class is toast. Until the FEDERAL industrial policy is to set tariffs, wage standards, and environmental standards to a level where poor countries have an incentive to bring UP the average condition of their working classes, our working class is screwed. We have set up the whole rules of the game to favor the rich industrialist and the CEOs to be able to push wages and conditions of the working class down. The real question should be how do we change this to truly be "America First" with our working classes. Comparative advantage is a concept from the Classical Era. Ricardo, iirc. It's useful to explain how some production works, but all simple, static models fall short of being a basis for policy. Our trade policies aren't based on that old theory. It's nice for textbooks in intro to macro. Anyway, that's a too deterministic take and not representative of many realities. You can hit on some truths and still be off base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akkula Posted September 27 Share Posted September 27 On 9/27/2023 at 2:17 PM, Los_Aztecas said: Maybe I'm cynical, but I don't trust promises of future benefits if I just sacrifice now. Well...maybe you are cynical because you actually tried this sage advice at some point in the last 20 years.... I did and said...+++++ it...I am doing my own thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toonkee Posted September 27 Share Posted September 27 On 9/27/2023 at 1:09 PM, grandjean87 said: Imagine there's no management. It isn't hard to do. No free stock options. No worker exploitation, too. Imagine all the workers living life in peace. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only onebluefan... ...getting nauseated Last job I was at a VP told me he didn't want to be called a "manager", that he just had a role on the team, like anyone else. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
