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retrofade

The Christofascists have manufactured even more outrage

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On 5/27/2023 at 4:33 PM, bornontheblue said:

Dude I didn't say you use big words. You use a lot of words to really say nothing. Faux Intelligence 

What did Jesus say about criticizing others about the sliver in their eye when you have log in your own eye.

Yes members of the body of  Christ should hold each other accountable, but always in loving kindness , and redirected back to God's love, never in demeaning judgement. 

It was actually pretty simple.  Nothing difficult to understand.  You misused terms involving "to judge".  You argued past others who were not talking about confirming souls or justifying judgmentslism (you know, being a conceited prick).   You did the same with me.  You just have a bit of tunnel vision and like to argue. 

And, I don't think anyone here said it's okay to judge people who have a sexuality outside of some traditional construct.  

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On 5/27/2023 at 6:26 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Hypocritical judgement makes on a hypocrite.  I love how you are just ignoring John 7:20 where we are given a direct command to judge others in favor of your interpretation of the passage that ignores the context immediately preceding and following it.  Do not throw your pearls before swine.  Do not give to dogs what is sacred.  Watch for false prophets.  How do we identify the swine, dogs and false prophets?  In order to identify them we must judge them on their words and actions, there is no other way.  Jesus tells us  to Judge in John.  The apostle John tells us to judge.  Paul judges the Ephesians in the same sermon you are quoting Jesus says we can identify false prohets by their fruit.  This requires judgement.  Galatians 6:1 commands us to judge.  Later in Mathew we are once again advised to judge.  Ephesians 4:15.

Sorry bud, scripture is not on your side.  If you believe you should never judge, fine, just don't tell us you came to that conclusion through a superior understanding of scripture.

 

The words of Jesus are clear and succinct. We are not to judge period. I have absolutely come to that conclusion through what the scriptures say. I have come to that conclusion by what Jesus himself says. 

Now you are just hodgepodging randomly gathered together pieces of scripture that only add shallow support to your argument. 

If you feel you can judge others , and the scriptures support that well have at it, live according to your beliefs. I won't judge you for it. 

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On 5/27/2023 at 6:36 PM, bornontheblue said:

The words of Jesus are clear and succinct. We are not to judge period. I have absolutely come to that conclusion through what the scriptures say. I have come to that conclusion by what Jesus himself says. 

Now you are just hodgepodging randomly gathered together pieces of scripture that only add shallow support to your argument. 

If you feel you can judge others , and the scriptures support that well have at it, live according to your beliefs. I won't judge you for it. 

Lol.  Explain John 7:24.  The words of Jesus are clear and succinct.   "Judge in good judgement" clear.  Succinct.  It is a direct command from Jesus to judge others.  A direct clear succinct command.  There are bad and good ways to judge.  

Sorry buddy, your scriptural knowledge is severally lacking.  Again, how do you go about identifying the swine, dogs and false prophets?  From the exact same sermon.  It requires judging their words and actions.  You are ignoring  the context of that passage.  It does NOT say to never judge, period.  It simply does not say that.  John 7:20 says under no uncertain terms we are to judge in good judgement.

Not judging ever makes you a net harm to society, to friends, to loved ones.  If instead of graduating college, your daughter dropped out to work at the bunny ranch and pick up a meth habit, it would your Christian duty to judge her for it and set her on the right path.  

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On 5/27/2023 at 6:42 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Lol.  Explain John 7:20.  The words of Jesus are clear and succinct.   "Judge in good judgement" clear.  Succinct.  It is a direct command from Jesus to judge others.  A direct clear succinct command.  There are bad and good ways to judge.  

Sorry buddy, your scriptural knowledge is severally lacking.  Again, how do you identifying the swine, dogs and false prophets?  From the exact same sermon.  It requires judging their words and actions.  You are ignoring  the context of that passage.  It does NOT say to never judge, period.  It simply does not say that.  John 7:20 says under no uncertain terms we are to judge in good judgement.

Not judging ever makes you a net harm to society, to friends, to loved ones.  If instead of graduating college, your daughter dropped out to work at the bunny ranch and pick up a meth habit, it would your Christian duty to judge her for it and set her on the right path.  

It's ok to be critical of sin,  never ok to judge others, because we are all deserving of that same judgement.I will never back down from that point, and we should never think so highly of ourselves that we feel we can pass judgement on anybody. I understand you feel differently and that's ok. I don't judge you fur having different beliefs. 

Christ provided numerous examples in his ministry. The speck in your brothers eye, telling the men that only those without sin could stone the woman, reserving his harshest judgement for the religious establishment who sought to harass the so called undesirable sinners. Those undesirable sinners were instead given , love, mercy, and kindness by Jesus. 

as far as my daughter goes ok fine, you want to  go there. I still would not judge her. Knowing my daughter that would absolutely make our relationship worse. If she chose that lifestyle I would show kindness and love and my door and heart would always be open. 

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On 5/27/2023 at 6:55 PM, bornontheblue said:

It's ok to be critical of sin,  never ok to judge others, because we are all deserving of that same judgement.I will never back down from that point, and we should never think so highly of ourselves that we feel we can pass judgement on anybody. I understand you feel differently and that's ok. I don't judge you fur having different beliefs. 

Christ provided numerous examples in his ministry. The speck in your brothers eye, telling the men that only those without sin could stone the woman, reserving his harshest judgement for the religious establishment who sought to harass the so called undesirable sinners. Those undesirable sinners were instead given , love, mercy, and kindness by Jesus. 

as far as my daughter goes ok fine, you want to  go there. I still would not judge her. Knowing my daughter that would absolutely make our relationship worse. If she chose that lifestyle I would show kindness and love and my door and heart would always be open. 

So still ignoring John 7:24 huh....

And laughable you think a dead 4 year old will face judgement...

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On 5/27/2023 at 7:08 PM, bornontheblue said:

Do you feel you can judge others without being a hypocrite. Because that's what Jesus would call you 

John 7:24 bud....

Yeah, hypocritical judgement makes you a hypocrite.  You are ignoring the greater context of the passage, purposefully.  Jesus gave us a direct command in to judge others in John 7:24

In that same sermon Jesus commands you to judge, swine, dogs, false prophets you will know by their fruits.  This requires judgement.  Yes, I can judge a murderer without being a hypocrite because I am not a murderer.  That simple

 

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On 5/27/2023 at 7:07 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

So still ignoring John 7:24 huh....

After reading John 7:24 Jesus is not talking about judging others.it certainly does not provide permission to judge others Full context is necessary here. Jesus use of the term  judging here is not in context of judging other people, but used in the context of the people who witnessed Jesus ministry and them judging who Jesus actually is, the Messiah What is going on in John 7:24 is that a crowd was astonished that Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath, and the religious rule keepers were pissed about it. Christ is telling them you use their judgement and see that they are so blinded by the strict religious order of the day that the actual Christ was performing healing miracles in front of them and they didn't have the judgement to see it  Perhaps discernment is a better word than judgement, and maybe it is used in other versions, IDK. One thing after reading John 7:24  in full context is that it certainly does not give us permission to judge others, and it certainly does not contradict Mathew 7 

 

 

 

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On 5/27/2023 at 4:32 PM, retrofade said:

I'm going to need to read that. I personally have a lot of issues with Paul and his venerated place among adherents of Chrstianity. 

Paul is the great evangelist, and his writings make up much of the New Testament.  His letters to the communities and to Titus and Timothy obviously served in the liturgy prior to the formation of the biblical cannon.   They all have their contexts, purposes, and meanings.   

I think Paul gets misused in our modern, individualistic culture because his writings are so often cited as evidence for teachings and arguments.  I'm not for arguments and teachings that rely on modern English translations, ostensibly literal, that wind up getting used to support some set of beliefs.  

Now, on the New Perspectives on Paul (NPP) there's much to dig into.  It has become a robust debate within Protestantism.   I've listened to some podcasts and read the surface of the matter.  I think it may be more a new, old perspective.  And, I would welcome more coming together among Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant theology on grace, faith, and salvation. 

I am of the theology that faith and love and hope are verbs not nouns.  I think the NPP heads into that.  

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On 5/27/2023 at 7:27 PM, bornontheblue said:

After reading John 7:24 Jesus is not talking about judging others.it certainly does not provide permission to judge others Full context is necessary here. Jesus use of the term  judging here is not in context of judging other people, but used in the context of the people who witnessed Jesus ministry and them judging who Jesus actually is, the Messiah What is going on in John 7:24 is that a crowd was astonished that Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath, and the religious rule keepers were pissed about it. Christ is telling them you use their judgement and see that they are so blinded by the strict religious order of the day that the actual Christ was performing healing miracles in front of them and they didn't have the judgement to see it  Perhaps discernment is a better word than judgement, and maybe it is used in other versions, IDK. One thing after reading John 7:24  in full context is that it certainly does not give us permission to judge others, and it certainly does not contradict Mathew 7 

 

 

 

Yes, it is LITERALLY talking about judging others.  It is a condemnation of superficial judgement and a call to judge wisely.  PEOPLE.  

Again, how does one go about identifying the swine, dogs and false prophets?  Do they have signs around around their neck?  No.  It requires you JUDGE them.

And John 7:24 is absolutely not saying it is ok to judge other PEOPLE, it is a calling to do so in a wise manner.

 
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On 5/27/2023 at 7:43 PM, grandjean87 said:

Paul is the great evangelist, and his writings make up much of the New Testament.  His letters to the communities and to Titus and Timothy obviously served in the liturgy prior to the formation of the biblical cannon.   They all have their contexts, purposes, and meanings.   

I think Paul gets misused in our modern, individualistic culture because his writings are so often cited as evidence for teachings and arguments.  I'm not for arguments and teachings that rely on modern English translations, ostensibly literal, that wind up getting used to support some set of beliefs.  

Now, on the New Perspectives on Paul (NPP) there's much to dig into.  It has become a robust debate within Protestantism.   I've listened to some podcasts and read the surface of the matter.  I think it may be more a new, old perspective.  And, I would welcome more coming together among Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant theology on grace, faith, and salvation. 

I am of the theology that faith and love and hope are verbs not nouns.  I think the NPP heads into that.  

Paul was pretty judgmental.

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“Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?” (1 Corinthians 6:2-3).

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On 5/27/2023 at 7:49 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Yes, it is LITERALLY talking about judging others.  It is a condemnation of superficial judgement and a call to judge wisely.  PEOPLE.  

Again, how does one go about identifying the swine, dogs and false prophets?  Do they have signs around around their neck?  No.  It requires you JUDGE them.

And John 7:24 is absolutely not saying it is ok to judge other PEOPLE, it is a calling to do so in a wise manner.

 

No that is not what John 7:24 is saying. People were in shock that someone would so blatantly violate the religious rules of the day, and the rule makers were furious about it. Jesus is saying they you are so preoccupied with the burdensome rules of the era that they couldn't judge for themselves who it was right on front of them. Thank you for sharing this scripture. We should absolutely not get caught up in the mundane, and burdensome technicalities of religion that we become blinded to the work that Jesus is doing right in front of us. 

this passage in no way gives us permission to be judgemental towards others. 

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On 5/27/2023 at 7:59 PM, bornontheblue said:

No that is not what John 7:24 is saying. People were in shock that someone would so blatantly violate the religious rules of the day, and the rule makers were furious about it. Jesus is saying they you are so preoccupied with the burdensome rules of the era that they couldn't judge for themselves who it was right on front of them. Thank you for sharing this scripture. We should absolutely not get caught up in the mundane, and burdensome technicalities of religion that we become blinded to the work that Jesus is doing right in front of us. 

this passage in no way gives us permission to be judgemental towards others. 

Yes, it CLEARLY is a calling to righteous judgement of others.  Every single theologian on the first 5 pages of google after googling "what does the bible say about judgement" agrees with.  None agree with you.  They all, regardless of denomination, site John 24:7 as an example of how to properly judge others as commanded by Christ.  

Yer wrong dude.  Jesus and the rest of the new testament clearly state there is good and bad judgement of others.

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On 5/27/2023 at 7:58 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

“Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?” (1 Corinthians 6:2-3).

Again you are taking a passage way  out of context. Paul is talking about disputes among believers over trivial matters. The church in Corinth had a problem with believers settling disputes with each other in court in a public manner. Paul is saying that they are capable of judging and settling trivial disputes internally inside the church, and not in public. Again, this passage does not give us permission to judge others, and it does not contradict Christ's sayings in  Matthew regarding judging and hypocrisy. 

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On 5/27/2023 at 8:03 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Yes, it CLEARLY is a calling to righteous judgement of others.  Every single theologian on the first 5 pages of google after googling "what does the bible say about judgement" agrees with.  None agree with you.  They all, regardless of denomination, site John 24:7 as an example of how to properly judge others as commanded by Christ.  

Yer wrong dude.  Jesus and the rest of the new testament clearly state there is good and bad judgement of others.

I read one analysis that supported your position compared to the multiple that supported mine . Christ is saying use your judgment, drop your fixation on the burdensome rules of they day and correctly judge who I am

 

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On 5/27/2023 at 8:05 PM, bornontheblue said:

Again you are taking a passage way  out of context. Paul is talking about disputes among believers over trivial matters. The church in Corinth had a problem with believers settling disputes with each other in court in a public manner. Paul is saying that they are capable of judging and settling trivial disputes internally inside the church, and not in public. Again, this passage does not give us permission to judge others, and it does not contradict Christ's sayings in  Matthew regarding judging and hypocrisy. 

Dude, the vast majority of scholarship on what the bible says about judgement agrees with me, not you.  Vast, overwhelming majority.  

John 7:24 is talking about the wrong and right way to judge others.  

You are dead certain you are right.  I am dead certain you are not.  No minds are getting changed.

You judge posters on here allllll the time lol

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On 5/27/2023 at 8:10 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Dude, the vast majority of scholarship on what the bible says about judgement agrees with me, not you.  Vast, overwhelming majority.  

John 7:24 is talking about the wrong and right way to judge others.  

You are dead certain you are right.  I am dead certain you are not.  No minds are getting changed.

You judge posters on here allllll the time lol

“First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.” Much to the point of this article, there can be no doubt that those final words—”take the speck out of your brother’s eye”—are, indeed, permission to judge so long as it is done rightly.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/judge-not-2

Good read here.

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On 5/27/2023 at 8:10 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Dude, the vast majority of scholarship on what the bible says about judgement agrees with me, not you.  Vast, overwhelming majority.  

John 7:24 is talking about the wrong and right way to judge others.  

You are dead certain you are right.  I am dead certain you are not.  No minds are getting changed.

You judge posters on here allllll the time lol

No there is no vast majority that agrees with you on this. There are some people who take your position. 

I absolutely judge people, I never claimed I didn't in fact I have stated in this thread I fail many times daily at it. I fail many times hourly at it. 

Yes I am confident my position is correct , and even moreso after reading John 7:24. 

I agree no minds are getting changed and the conversation has turned unproductive. If you feel like you need the last word I'll let you have it. 

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