Unified thread on all the legal woes of trump & his clown cohorts

[bornontheblue]

On 6/3/2024 at 4:07 PM, grandjean87 said:

But it’s any one of those three counts, and the jury does not have to be unanimous, based on very longstanding New York law, on how these rules work in terms of the unanimity requirement."

Again you are so full of shit. Fake analyses disguised as justification to support the outcome you wanted. Please, Please do not ever mention that Trump is a threat to democracy again. 

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/19pdf/18-5924_n6io.pdf

 

 

 

[UNLV2001]

[grandjean87]

On 6/3/2024 at 4:19 PM, bornontheblue said:

Again you are so full of shit. Fake analyses disguised as justification to support the outcome you wanted. Please, Please do not ever mention that Trump is a threat to democracy again. 

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/19pdf/18-5924_n6io.pdf

 

 

 

You didn't read the case.  You don't read case law.  Ramos is about something very different from the NY Trump case that was required to (and had) a unanimous verdict for guilt.  NY law required unanimity and the jury delivered just that.  What the hell do you think all the "it only takes one for a hung jury" was all about?  Rhetorical. 

[Akkula]

On 6/3/2024 at 4:27 PM, UNLV2001 said:

These same Republican idiots also think the 2020 election was rigged or fraudulent despite any evidence.  The only ones who have been charged, tried, and convicted or any election rigging or fraud are REPBULICANS.

[bornontheblue]

On 6/3/2024 at 4:42 PM, grandjean87 said:

Y law required unanimity and the jury delivered just that.  What the hell do you think all the "it only takes one for a hung jury" was all about?  Rhetorical. 

You are dumb

It takes a unanimous jury convicting someone of the same crime. You cant say three of the jurors convicted of this crime , 8 of the Juros convicted of this combo, and we finally got one more with the other combo of crimes. 

 

On 6/3/2024 at 4:42 PM, grandjean87 said:

Ramos is about something very different from the NY Trump case that was required to (and had) a unanimous verdict for guilt.

Right, Its always very different. Sorry you but you needed unanimity of jurors convicting for the SAME CRIME.  I am troubled that you have a hard time grasping one of the basic concepts of our criminal justice system. 

[toonkee]

On 6/3/2024 at 2:37 PM, bornontheblue said:

No you didn't. You like to think of yourself as deep thinker offering remarkable insight but you cherry pick the data you want, ignore the data you don't want, and rely on the opinions of other idiots who all just wanted the same outcome you did anyways. You ignore the anybody else who offers opinions you don't want to be true. You confuse analyses with justification old man, 

 

 

where is your analysis?

all we have from you are flat earth style conspiracy questions, the same spouted by don jr and dumbf*ck twitter.

you posted link to the ramos case with no analysis.  show us how ramos defeats the outline and roadmap @grandjean87 posted. 

[bornontheblue]

On 6/3/2024 at 5:44 PM, toonkee said:

where is your analysis?

all we have from you are flat earth style conspiracy questions, the same spouted by don jr and dumbf*ck twitter.

you posted link to the ramos case with no analysis.  show us how ramos defeats the outline and roadmap @grandjean87 posted. 

I’ve offered as much analyses as anybody else here including grandjean. Maybe i should use flow charts to make it easier for you. And it’s not flat earther conspiracy stuff either dummy, it’s being stated by well respected media voices, and journalists, and other prominent people. It’s not Alex Jones dummy 

[Motown Monty]

Maybe the problem is how they charged this to force it into be a felony?

the "felony" is they alleged that Trump violated New York election law by not reporting the $150,000 sex hush payment to Stormy Daniels as a "campaign expense", instead of a "legal expense"?  

meaning the prosecutor argued that this was a campaign expense and not about Trump keeping this affair from the public or his wife?

Otherwise it would be a misdemeanor without there being and underlying crime.

 

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/trump-was-convicted-but-prosecutors-contorted-the-law.html

But when you impose meaningful search parameters, the truth emerges: The charges against Trump are obscure, and nearly entirely unprecedented. In fact, no state prosecutor — in New York, or Wyoming, or anywhere — has ever charged federal election laws as a direct or predicate state crime, against anyone, for anything. None. Ever. Even putting aside the specifics of election law, the Manhattan DA itself almost never brings any case in which falsification of business records is the only charge.

Standing alone, falsification charges would have been mere misdemeanors under New York law, which posed two problems for the DA.

First, nobody cares about a misdemeanor, and it would be laughable to bring the first-ever charge against a former president for a trifling offense that falls within the same technical criminal classification as shoplifting a Snapple and a bag of Cheetos from a bodega.

Second, the statute of limitations on a misdemeanor — two years — likely has long expired on Trump’s conduct, which dates to 2016 and 2017.

 

So, to inflate the charges up to the lowest-level felony (Class E, on a scale of Class A through E) — and to electroshock them back to life within the longer felony statute of limitations — the DA alleged that the falsification of business records was committed “with intent to commit another crime.” Here, according to prosecutors, the “another crime” is a New York State election-law violation, which in turn incorporates three separate “unlawful means”: federal campaign crimes, tax crimes, and falsification of still more documents. Inexcusably, the DA refused to specify what those unlawful means actually were — and the judge declined to force them to pony up — until right before closing arguments. So much for the constitutional obligation to provide notice to the defendant of the accusations against him in advance of trial. (This, folks, is what indictments are for.)

In these key respects, the charges against Trump aren’t just unusual. They’re bespoke, seemingly crafted individually for the former president and nobody else.

The Manhattan DA’s employees reportedly have called this the “Zombie Case” because of various legal infirmities, including its bizarre charging mechanism. But it’s better characterized as the Frankenstein Case, cobbled together with ill-fitting parts into an ugly, awkward, but more-or-less functioning contraption that just might ultimately turn on its creator.

Trump will appeal, as is his right, and he’s certain to contest the inventive charges constructed by the DA. I won’t go so far as to say an appeals court is likely to overturn a conviction — New York law is broad and hazy enough to (potentially) allow such machinations — but he’s going to have a decent shot at a reversal.

“No man is above the law.” It’s become cliché, but it’s an important point, and it’s worth pausing to reflect on the importance of this core principle. But it’s also meaningless pablum if we unquestioningly tolerate (or worse, celebrate) deviations from ordinary process and principle to get there. The jury’s word is indeed sacrosanct, as I learned long ago. But it can’t fix everything that preceded it. Here, prosecutors got their man, for now at least — but they also contorted the law in an unprecedented manner in their quest to snare their prey.

[grandjean87]

On 6/3/2024 at 5:44 PM, toonkee said:

where is your analysis?

all we have from you are flat earth style conspiracy questions, the same spouted by don jr and dumbf*ck twitter.

you posted link to the ramos case with no analysis.  show us how ramos defeats the outline and roadmap @grandjean87 posted. 

Interesting case that I assume would have got more notice except for the timing at the start of Covid.  Ramos would not have applied to NY and all but two other states because they had already extended unanimity to serious crimes.  The Roberts Court overturned a Burger Court ruling and "incorporated" the 14th A to the 6th.  Seven different opinions. Too much to go through, but it does t matter.  NY vs. DJT was a unanimous ruling by 12 jurors on 34 counts of the Dumbfvck promoting his election through false means. It wasn't 9-3 or 10-2 or some other supermajority, but 12 for 12 times 34. 

[bornontheblue]

On 6/3/2024 at 6:45 PM, grandjean87 said:

NY vs. DJT was a unanimous ruling by 12 jurors on 34 counts of the Dumbfvck promoting his election through false means. It wasn't 9-3 or 10-2 or some other supermajority, but 12 for 12 times 34. 

Again you are woefully misinformed. 

The Judge literally told the jurors that they can use any of the three elements of a secondary crime to convict of the primary crime and they didn't have to be al the same for each juror. I am sorry but that is not unanimity needed for conviction and grounds for appeal. 

Also how can they say he used it to cover up a second crime when he has not been convicted, or even charged with one of the secondary crimes needed to prove the first was a felony. This is also very fertile grounds for reversal which the SCOTUS will do. 

yer a moron 

 

 

 

 

[grandjean87]

On 6/3/2024 at 6:44 PM, Motown Monty said:

Maybe the problem is how they charged this to force it into be a felony?

the "felony" is they alleged that Trump violated New York election law by not reporting the $150,000 sex hush payment to Stormy Daniels as a "campaign expense", instead of a "legal expense"?  

meaning the prosecutor argued that this was a campaign expense and not about Trump keeping this affair from the public or his wife?

Otherwise it would be a misdemeanor without there being and underlying crime.

 

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/trump-was-convicted-but-prosecutors-contorted-the-law.html

But when you impose meaningful search parameters, the truth emerges: The charges against Trump are obscure, and nearly entirely unprecedented. In fact, no state prosecutor — in New York, or Wyoming, or anywhere — has ever charged federal election laws as a direct or predicate state crime, against anyone, for anything. None. Ever. Even putting aside the specifics of election law, the Manhattan DA itself almost never brings any case in which falsification of business records is the only charge.

Standing alone, falsification charges would have been mere misdemeanors under New York law, which posed two problems for the DA.

First, nobody cares about a misdemeanor, and it would be laughable to bring the first-ever charge against a former president for a trifling offense that falls within the same technical criminal classification as shoplifting a Snapple and a bag of Cheetos from a bodega.

Second, the statute of limitations on a misdemeanor — two years — likely has long expired on Trump’s conduct, which dates to 2016 and 2017.

 

So, to inflate the charges up to the lowest-level felony (Class E, on a scale of Class A through E) — and to electroshock them back to life within the longer felony statute of limitations — the DA alleged that the falsification of business records was committed “with intent to commit another crime.” Here, according to prosecutors, the “another crime” is a New York State election-law violation, which in turn incorporates three separate “unlawful means”: federal campaign crimes, tax crimes, and falsification of still more documents. Inexcusably, the DA refused to specify what those unlawful means actually were — and the judge declined to force them to pony up — until right before closing arguments. So much for the constitutional obligation to provide notice to the defendant of the accusations against him in advance of trial. (This, folks, is what indictments are for.)

In these key respects, the charges against Trump aren’t just unusual. They’re bespoke, seemingly crafted individually for the former president and nobody else.

The Manhattan DA’s employees reportedly have called this the “Zombie Case” because of various legal infirmities, including its bizarre charging mechanism. But it’s better characterized as the Frankenstein Case, cobbled together with ill-fitting parts into an ugly, awkward, but more-or-less functioning contraption that just might ultimately turn on its creator.

Trump will appeal, as is his right, and he’s certain to contest the inventive charges constructed by the DA. I won’t go so far as to say an appeals court is likely to overturn a conviction — New York law is broad and hazy enough to (potentially) allow such machinations — but he’s going to have a decent shot at a reversal.

“No man is above the law.” It’s become cliché, but it’s an important point, and it’s worth pausing to reflect on the importance of this core principle. But it’s also meaningless pablum if we unquestioningly tolerate (or worse, celebrate) deviations from ordinary process and principle to get there. The jury’s word is indeed sacrosanct, as I learned long ago. But it can’t fix everything that preceded it. Here, prosecutors got their man, for now at least — but they also contorted the law in an unprecedented manner in their quest to snare their prey.

Thank goodness.  A decent questioning of the convictions and law. 

As posted in a different thread, the law(s) used to convict are probably the main appeal strategy.  Ş 17-152 is a misdemeanor, but it is a crime.  If Trump conspired to promote (an) his election by illegals means and the false business records are the result of those actions then you have ş 175.10 which is the felony up-charge of the misdemeanor.   175.10 does not require a felony connection. The election misdemeanor suffices.  175.10 only required a nexus with another crime (17-152) and the jury believed Pecker. They saw the forensics up-payments to Cohen to offset tax liability.  They got that a hush money payoff in 2016 for a decade old rendezvous was about the election. 

It was also a novel case, sure. But, how many politician cases have there ever been in NY state like this?  How many pols covered up hush money during a campaign and falsified records committing tax fraud in the process.  It was also kind of a novel crime.  The appeal may eventually turn on these things?

Barr blocked the earlier route to federal charges. Maybe if he doesn't weaponize the justice department to protect his president, this would have been a federal election and tax case after Ja. '21?   The Office of General Counsel found in 2018, as they have over two dozen-plus other times, reason to pursue/recommendations for Trump FEC violations.  All blocked to this day. 

 

It's really hard to manage any feels for Trump given 50+ years of his fvckery in NY, but if he wins an appeal so be it.  That's part of how things work in our system scales of justice tilted to the white collars, aside.  

[bornontheblue]

On 6/3/2024 at 7:21 PM, grandjean87 said:

this?  How many pols covered up hush money during a campaign and falsified records committing tax fraud in the process

You’ve heard of the Clinton’s right. They are democrats though and NY doesn’t go after those. I have no doubt about every politician does this. Only the ones who are a legit threat get charged with it though. You are insanely naive 

[bornontheblue]

On 6/3/2024 at 7:21 PM, grandjean87 said:

Barr blocked the earlier route to federal charges.

The justice department declined to prosecute Trump in the a Biden administration.And also Barr resigned because he wouldn’t be Trumps Yes Man. I’ve severely overestimated you 

[bornontheblue]

On 6/3/2024 at 7:21 PM, grandjean87 said:

system scales of justice tilted to the white collars, aside.  

You mean scales of justice tilted to political parties that have held and abused power for 50+ years. 
Go get em Mississippi prosecutors 

[retrofade]

On 6/3/2024 at 2:33 PM, bornontheblue said:

You have a right to a change in Venue if you cannot put together a jury of unbiased individuals. Again the judge blocked  this. 

Go get em Mississippi 

 

 

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/23/politics/trump-hush-money-trial-venue/index.html

[Spaztecs]

On 6/3/2024 at 7:38 PM, bornontheblue said:

The justice department declined to prosecute Trump in the a Biden administration.And also Barr resigned because he wouldn’t be Trumps Yes Man. I’ve severely overestimated you 

Wrong.

The Justice Department is attempting to prosecute Trump in DC and Florida.

Sadly, his hand-picked Judicial lackeys are determined to see him installed as dick-tater.

[Spaztecs]

On 6/3/2024 at 7:40 PM, bornontheblue said:

You mean scales of justice tilted to political parties that have held and abused power for 50+ years. 
Go get em Mississippi prosecutors 

 

Your emotional pleas for Red State to prosecute Joe are admirable.

There's only one problem, he hasn't committed any crimes in those States.

Keep rooting for the vilest and most incompetent Orange shit stain to become dick-tater 

[grandjean87]

FYI:  A couple trial docs. 

Attached next is the verdict sheet.  12 unanimous on 34 counts of Ş 175.10.  That's the charged verdict.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24706184-trump-verdict-sheet

Jury instructions transcript: https://static01.nyt.com/newsgraphics/documenttools/647cfa024408c047/31a0026b-full.pdf

[azgreg]

 

[Spaztecs]

@bornontheblue. Wet dream may come to fruition.

 

NEW YORK (AP) — In the days since Donald Trump was convicted of 34 felonies in his criminal hush money trial, Republicans who view the case as politically motivated have coalesced around a new rallying cry: Prosecute the left.

Candidates, officeholders and members of the former president's family have amplified Trump's calls for retribution against political enemies and urged their fellow Republicans to start charging Democrats with crimes.

“Time for Red State AGs and DAs to get busy,” Rep. Mike Collins of Georgia wrote on the social platform X, formerly Twitter, after a Manhattan jury found Trump guilty.