t's Time for the Scientific Community to Admit We Were Wrong About COVID and It Cost Lives

[SalinasSpartan]

On 2/3/2023 at 4:09 PM, AztecAlien said:

Believe what you want to believe. I believe there were mistakes and contradictions in the response to SARS-CoV-2 that made things worse and as a society we are just starting to deal with it. 

That has nothing to do with the fact that when less people get a disease, less people will die from that disease.

[renoskier]

On 2/3/2023 at 4:09 PM, AztecAlien said:

Believe what you want to believe. I believe there were mistakes and contradictions in the response to SARS-CoV-2 that made things worse and as a society we are just starting to deal with it. 

at least we don't have to "deal with" President Trump...in that respect, thank god for covid.

[AztecAlien]

On 2/3/2023 at 5:36 PM, SalinasSpartan said:

That has nothing to do with the fact that when less people get a disease, less people will die from that disease.

More people were infected and died as a result of those mistakes. Telling people to feel comfortable and make them think they are helping with slowing the spread of a virus using an ineffective cloth mask is one of those mistakes. The majority of us wore the masks I'm pointing out. You know the ones with different colors and designs that companies made millions off of that didn't work.   

[GoDogs22]

Man, if the polio vaccine came out today, people would be denouncing it as some sort of government conspiracy funded by George Soros and the Rothschilds to install microchips and take away our freedom to lose their legs.

[halfmanhalfbronco]

On 2/3/2023 at 3:04 PM, happycamper said:

based on what, halfman? "the science"? What studies show kids not properly masking? was that compared to overall societal masking compliance?

seems like you have gotten into the "not following the science" on this windmill tilt

Common +++++ing sense?  lol.  No, happy here is the ACTUAL science.  Anybody kids or not, spending 8 hours a day in close proximity in an indoor setting 5 days a week with 15-40 others in the same tiny room will make cloth masking completely useless EVEN IF they were completely worn the right way.  The viral load exhaled from the nose and mouth, even if reduced say 80% will over the course of those hours infect everybody around them.  Period.  That.  Is.  The.  Science.  

 

On 2/3/2023 at 3:04 PM, happycamper said:

dude I went camping in 2020 in Washington. they, uh, were not. playgrounds were closed for a bit, until the science showed it didn't matter. which is absolutely "following the science" because "the science" thought that covid was transmitted by surfaces for a while. 

Ok in redneck Idaho in 2020 in +++++ing Salmon River country with nobody around for 30 miles the out houses were nailed shut in 2020.  This was in Idaho in in June 2020.  When we had half a hundred published papers around the world showing that

 

On 2/3/2023 at 3:04 PM, happycamper said:

ure. or after they were available for teachers. 

ty was absolutely not going to contribute to the spread of SARS-CoV-19.  Many counties and states kept beaches and parks and campgrounds closed until late fall of 2020.  That was not following the science.  Period dude.  

On 2/3/2023 at 3:04 PM, happycamper said:

sure. or after they were available for teachers. 

No man.  After they were available for high risk teachers.  Ask any of the teachers on here.  They did not retire because of fear of COVID.  The mass retirement was due to not wanting to deal with remote teaching and how much harder it made their job.  Fear of COVID did not cause the teacher shortage...the COVID response did.

On 2/3/2023 at 3:04 PM, happycamper said:

no. march? no, we had no idea. we were washing our hands and had no mask mandate.

 

By end of March/early April we had 3 peer reviewed papers showing how COVID was spreading.  That was the science.  The CDC under Fauci refused to recommend policy accordingly in the face of science.  The very paper came out in Febuary of 2020 that made an iron clad case that COVID spread through aerosol transmission.  It was as solid as solid can be...CDC eventually a 7 months later did a...you are right...on it.  The science was ALWAYS there.  The CDC and Fauci is not the God Emperor of Science.  Just because the CDC said a thing, DOES NOT MEAN THAT IS WHAT THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY AGREED ON!!!!!  There was no agreement.  And those in disagreement were proven right but got no air time due to politics and Trump something.

The problem I have is the idea that that the Fauci lead CDC was  the end be all of science.  There were many whose credentials are at the top of their field calling BS on the whole response.  They were not given print. 

On 2/3/2023 at 3:04 PM, happycamper said:

ah I forgot cali went nutso. oregon and washington did not. science! 

Even +++++ing Idaho did.  In April 2020 on the East Fork of the South Fork of the Salmon the outhouses were nailed shut....In IDAHO of all places....what the actual +++++ how is that following the science?!?!?!   There is nobody within 30 miles!!!!

 

On 2/3/2023 at 3:04 PM, happycamper said:

sure it is. where do most people's food comes from? who offers curbside pickup?

that's basic. 

You are missing the point.  There is no reason at all the local butcher needed to shut down.  None.  Zero.  No reason the antique shop needed to be shut down.  None.  Why were they not allowed to simply enforce the mask mandates that Walmart did to stay open?  It was non scientific bullshit.  Period.  When resteraunts were allowed to reopen we all know the mask rules were non-scientific shit 

 

On 2/3/2023 at 3:04 PM, happycamper said:

except that didn't happen halfman. in many countries everyone didn't "eventually get covid" until after vaccines were available. that is recorded data. 

Except it really, really did.  The current estimate is that most of the population has had COVID with statistically significant portion not having symptoms.  We were all going to get it unless we took extraordinary measures.  That is what the RO showed.

 

On 2/3/2023 at 3:04 PM, happycamper said:

sure it is. where do most people's food comes from? who offers curbside pickup?

that's basic. 

If the point was to reduce transmission at all cost being "following the science" then there should be no differential between the local butcher and Walmart....but there was...that did not follow any science. That's basic.

 

On 2/3/2023 at 3:04 PM, happycamper said:

So which is it? Crowded beaches are ok, while protests aren't? is that "Science"? or is that you being curmudgeonly?

Pretty +++++ing simple....most beaches closed were not crowded.  Nor were the swing sets.  But they were closed.  Shortly after 20-30 million went in mass protest packed together shouting and chanting, which scientifically means you are spewing any viral loud in your body at dozens of times the rate than not speak but wearing a mask.

[halfmanhalfbronco]

Also Science does not begin and end with epidemiological theory and estimates...

[halfmanhalfbronco]

On 2/3/2023 at 4:17 PM, Spaztecs said:

If the medical short term solutions was social distancing, then packing people into beaches and campgrounds isn't following "The Science."

You must not camp much

[halfmanhalfbronco]

On 2/3/2023 at 8:47 PM, GoDogs22 said:

Man, if the polio vaccine came out today, people would be denouncing it as some sort of government conspiracy funded by George Soros and the Rothschilds to install microchips and take away our freedom to lose their legs.

What does that have to do with the conversation in this thread?  

+++++ing troglodyte...

[halfmanhalfbronco]

On 2/3/2023 at 4:18 PM, SalinasSpartan said:

His point is: 

Let’s say 1% of people with virus X die. 

Cloth masks reduce transmission of virus X by 5%.

In a group of 100,000 people, 10,000 will get virus X if they are all unmasked.

If they are all masked 9,500 will get virus X.

That means that without masks 500 people will get virus X that would not have had they worn masks. 

1% of those 500 people will die, which is 5.

Therefore, masking in that scenario would save 5 lives.

And that was NOT supposed to represent the transmissibility or death rate of COVID, those numbers are just numbers I pulled out of my ass because the math was easy to do in my head. 
 

His point is that when you are dealing with the sheer scale of COVID infections, reducing transmissibility by just 5% will directly result in saving some number of lives. If you want to argue the inconvenience of mask mandates before the vaccine was widely available was too much to justify the mandate even though it would save some lives, then argue that. But to say that a 5% reduction in transmission would not necessarily mean fewer deaths is just disingenuous or cowardice. 

 

 

The 5% reduction in transmission was based on one study looking at one community in India comparing it to another.  Outside that there is nothing to show a 5% reduction in the IFR/RO.  Taking that 5% figure and attributing it to k-6 schools is...well...retarded.  Apples to airplanes.  

There has been little to no evidence that cloth masking reduced transmission of SARS-CoV-2

Trying to make sense of the countless mask studies is a dauntless task.  

Fortunately, a number of scholars have integrated the findings of primary research studies into at least 31 systematic reviews and meta‐analyses. These generally confirm an absence of clear benefit and conclude that, if present, benefits are small to modest. For example, in a 2020 publication, Nishant Aggarwal et al. assessed 17 mask studies, concluding there was “no significant association between mask use and decrease in events of [influenza‐like illness].” Another meta‐analysis by Jingyi Xiao et al., supported by the WHO and available on the website of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, concluded that “evidence from RCTs of … face masks did not support a substantial effect on transmission of laboratory‐confirmed influenza.” Under direction from the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy, the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine considered the benefits of homemade fabric masks in the COVID-19 context, concluding that the “level of benefit, if any, is not possible to assess.”

https://www.cato.org/regulation/winter-2021/2022/how-effective-are-cloth-face-masks#meta-analyses

[SalinasSpartan]

On 2/3/2023 at 10:14 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

 

The 5% reduction in transmission was based on one study looking at one community in India comparing it to another.  Outside that there is nothing to show a 5% reduction in the IFR/RO.  Taking that 5% figure and attributing it to k-6 schools is...well...retarded.  Apples to airplanes.  

There has been little to no evidence that cloth masking reduced transmission of SARS-CoV-2

Trying to make sense of the countless mask studies is a dauntless task.  

Fortunately, a number of scholars have integrated the findings of primary research studies into at least 31 systematic reviews and meta‐analyses. These generally confirm an absence of clear benefit and conclude that, if present, benefits are small to modest. For example, in a 2020 publication, Nishant Aggarwal et al. assessed 17 mask studies, concluding there was “no significant association between mask use and decrease in events of [influenza‐like illness].” Another meta‐analysis by Jingyi Xiao et al., supported by the WHO and available on the website of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, concluded that “evidence from RCTs of … face masks did not support a substantial effect on transmission of laboratory‐confirmed influenza.” Under direction from the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy, the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine considered the benefits of homemade fabric masks in the COVID-19 context, concluding that the “level of benefit, if any, is not possible to assess.”

https://www.cato.org/regulation/winter-2021/2022/how-effective-are-cloth-face-masks#meta-analyses

The Cato institute was against a government mandate? No way.

[halfmanhalfbronco]

On 2/3/2023 at 11:48 PM, SalinasSpartan said:

The Cato institute was against a government mandate? No way.

The peer reviewed studies are the peer reviewed studies....

Be better?

[halfmanhalfbronco]

And that is on influenza...which we know has far less RO and is expontially easier to spread via droplets

[SalinasSpartan]

On 2/3/2023 at 10:49 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

The peer reviewed studies are the peer reviewed studies....

Be better?

I haven’t, and also will not, seek out and read every peer reviewed study re: the effectiveness of cloth masks in reducing the transmission of COVID. So I frankly just do not give a single shit about what a partisan institute cites to back up the anti-mask mandate stance they were ALWAYS going to have. 

[halfmanhalfbronco]

On 2/4/2023 at 12:03 AM, SalinasSpartan said:

I haven’t, and also will not, seek out and read every peer reviewed study re: the effectiveness of cloth masks in reducing the transmission of COVID. So I frankly just do not give a single shit about what a partisan institute cites to back up the anti-mask mandate stance they were ALWAYS going to have. 

Good thing you did not have to seek them out.  They were cited.

Cloth masks were not an effective tool on controlling the spread of SARS-CoV-2.  That's pretty much the cut and dry of it.  They did however hamper the development of millions of kids significantly and caused a huge ecological mess.

This is coming from somebody who was a mask Nazi himself and spent two years masking shaming people on this very board.  However, when presented with the data, one must humble himself and change his mind.

 

[Spaztecs]

On 2/3/2023 at 5:09 PM, AztecAlien said:

Believe what you want to believe. I believe there were mistakes and contradictions in the response to SARS-CoV-2 that made things worse and as a society and we are just starting to deal with it. 

You are correct. Your Team and your Orange Führer denied it right from the get go. Politicized it and out of absolute loyalty to your Führer, thr minions refused to socially distance, mask, and vaxx.

The result is they died at a 2 to 1 ratio.

It wasn't Science that led to excess deaths, it was the dumb assed rhetoric people like you keep pushing.

 

 

[Spaztecs]

On 2/3/2023 at 5:42 PM, AztecAlien said:

More people were infected and died as a result of those mistakes. Telling people to feel comfortable and make them think they are helping with slowing the spread of a virus using an ineffective cloth mask is one of those mistakes. The majority of us wore the masks I'm pointing out. You know the ones with different colors and designs that companies made millions off of that didn't work.   

 

Sorry dumass, but your team telling everyone it was a hoax, your team telling everyone they didn't need to distance or mask, your team telling everyone not to get vaxxed led to excess deaths. 

Not the science.

You are one obtuse dickhead

[Spaztecs]

On 2/3/2023 at 11:03 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

You must not camp much

Most campgrounds in this land oack people into close proximity.

During the lockdowns most campgrounds were purposely squeezing more people into their facilites to take advantage of the finacial windfall.

And don't tell me they were staying in their rigs 

They were overflowing the common areas, massively over populating the trails, lakes, and other vistas.

They went against the Science of distance.

[Spaztecs]

On 2/3/2023 at 11:04 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

What does that have to do with the conversation in this thread?  

+++++ing troglodyte...

Everything

Dumbass.

[halfmanhalfbronco]

On 2/4/2023 at 9:22 AM, Spaztecs said:

Most campgrounds in this land oack people into close proximity.

During the lockdowns most campgrounds were purposely squeezing more people into their facilites to take advantage of the finacial windfall.

And don't tell me they were staying in their rigs 

They were overflowing the common areas, massively over populating the trails, lakes, and other vistas.

They went against the Science of distance.

BS.  Even in California the campgrounds are spaced 10+ yards apart.  Absolute BS.  

[Spaztecs]

On 2/4/2023 at 9:11 AM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Good thing you did not have to seek them out.  They were cited.

Cloth masks were not an effective tool on controlling the spread of SARS-CoV-2.  That's pretty much the cut and dry of it.  They did however hamper the development of millions of kids significantly and caused a huge ecological mess.

This is coming from somebody who was a mask Nazi himself and spent two years masking shaming people on this very board.  However, when presented with the data, one must humble himself and change his mind.

 

Ur a phucking disaster.

The worst kind because you believe that by being self educated you are smarter than everyone else.

It merely provides you with a self inflicted superiority.